Oral Histories
Under the direction of Dr. Carmen Coury, students of HIS480: Seminar in Oral History conducted and transcribed the following oral history interviews of New Haven's Latin American community.
Nicholas Alexiades
HIS480
Caribbean Immigrant Interview Transcript
Georgia Sutherland = S
Nicholas A. Alexiades = A
A: So I am interviewing Georgia Sutherland, I just wanted to
go over the consent form now that we’ve started the recording. I’ll read you
the confidentiality statement, so, “your participation in the study is
completely voluntary, you may withdraw at any time. Your interview will be
transcribed from the recording and once the interview is transcribed the
recording will be destroyed. The digital transcriptions will be used by
students in History 480 for their final projects, and additionally if you
permit, a copy of the transcription will be preserved to the New Haven Ethnic
Heritage Center and/or on the Digital New Haven Website. Your age, gender, year
of immigration, and country of origin will be made available to researchers,
and you may choose whether or not you would like to be identified by name. I
actually have a pen in my jacket, sorry. (I stand up to grab my pen from my
jacket)
S: So you record it and you edit it and…?
A: Well, uh, we won’t be editing it really.
S: Oh, so you’re just using that (gestures to the recording
while reviewing consent form)
A: Yeah it’ll just be a full transcription
S: Sure.
A: Mhmm, read (the form) and just check everything you feel
comfortable with, and then your signature at the bottom, and I’ll sign it, and
then we can start.
(Brief pause as Georgia reviews the confidentiality
agreement, we verify the date and add our signatures)
A: Ok. So, Georgia, I’d like to start the interview by
asking you about where you were born.
S: So I was born in, I was born in Allman Hill in St. Catherine
Parish Jamaica.
A: Now, is Allman Hill, um, a borough in a city, or is that
a town, or…?
S: It’s just a very, a rural community. Yeah, so it’s a
rural community.
A: Ok. Um, so can you describe a typical day in Allman Hill?
S: Would be?
A: Yeah!
S: Maybe I should use Golden River then.
A: Ok.
S: I think Allman Hill is really like the broader,
A: Like the region sort of?
S: Yeah, sort of, and that’s what’s on my birth records, but
Golden River is a little area I really grew up in. And you asked me if, what a
typical day is like?
A: Yeah, sort of describe a typical day,
S: A typical day in the community?
A: Mhm.
S: You uh, wake up, you help with the chores, you get ready
for school, you go to school, you come home, you help with more chores in your
home, then you go to bed then tomorrow its all over again. So that’s on a
school day.
A: So um, did you have to travel outside of Golden River to
attend school?
S: Yes, just out of my little community to the adjoining
community Above Rocks, and that’s where I attended school.
A: Above Rocks, Ok
S: Yeah
A: So can you kind of, sort
of describe your community to me? The one you grew up in.
S: So very rural, again. You walk everywhere, so you walk
from one home to the next or from your home to visit a friend’s home or a
family member’s home. Rural as in dirt road, so the roads aren’t paved, and uh,
lots of trees and lots of vegetation, and that’s really all you see is vegetation.
You have maybe a church, and a basic school within that community itself. And
that pretty much, lots of farmland and lots of farm animals, farming fruit
trees, stuff like that.
A: So was, were the schools connected to the uhm, religious
centers, in that way? The churches, or,
S: Yes it was a predominately Catholic community, so the
schools were catholic schools, which I attended for basic school, or what we
would call elementary school here. And also for, uh, we call it All Age School
but you would probably say the middle school, and also for high school. So they
were all Catholic schools.
A: So umm, going off of that, what role did religion play in your daily life growing up?
A: So umm, going off of that, what role did religion play in your daily life growing up?
S: Growing up? Um, let’s think about it for a minute. Well
it was um, we went to church every Sunday, to the Catholic Church, every
Sunday, and participated in Mass. Uh, well you know Good Friday was a holiday
as well so it was about going to Church, going to Mass daily from Friday to
Monday. And uh, religious education was also taught within schools, so that
played a big role, since it was Catholic school that played a big role in the
curriculum as well.
A: Ok, um, now, could you share with me the names of your
parents, and what they did for a living?
S: Now my parent’s names are Henry and Cinderella Thames, T-H-A-M-E-S. My father was a homemaker, my mother, excuse me, my mother is, was, a homemaker, and my father was a tailor.
S: Now my parent’s names are Henry and Cinderella Thames, T-H-A-M-E-S. My father was a homemaker, my mother, excuse me, my mother is, was, a homemaker, and my father was a tailor.
A: Your father was a tailor?
S: Yes, professional.
A: Did a lot of people in Golden River have, um, work in trades in that way? Um, I know that you said it was rural, so it was primarily an agricultural community?
A: Did a lot of people in Golden River have, um, work in trades in that way? Um, I know that you said it was rural, so it was primarily an agricultural community?
S: Yes, it was primarily agricultural. So a lot of the
women, or the wives, the mothers, stayed home and some of them were dressmakers
or they would make craft items, but primarily they were stay at home moms,
homemakers. The fathers would farm, some of them would have trades, like my
father was a tailor, you might have somebody that was a plumber. Uh, so just
basic trades as those.
A: Ok, was it typical for women to be receiving an education
alongside men in that, around the 60s and 70s?
S: Well, where I grew up, again, it’s very rural and most of the people that I know, my mother, my aunts, my cousins who were older, most of them had as far as I can tell, just a basic education.
S: Well, where I grew up, again, it’s very rural and most of the people that I know, my mother, my aunts, my cousins who were older, most of them had as far as I can tell, just a basic education.
A: ok so through elementary school?
S: Yes and through High School, but not beyond that, of the
ones that I knew. So most of them were educated probably the high school level
and that was the furthest. And as times changed, the 60s and 70s, that’s
changed a lot, where as children we were encouraged a lot to go beyond just
that, beyond the high school level. You would move out of the community and
then you would attend tertiary education.
A: and tertiary is…?
S: Would be college, or university, or a business school,
some form of education beyond highschool. That’s what we would term as
tertiary.
A: oh ok so I guess in layman’s, it’s like post-secondary
education.
S: Yes, yes.
A: Ok, um, so can you describe to me sort of what school was
like in the Catholic, they were integrated classrooms I presume, Oh Co-ed
rather?
S: Yes of course, certainly. We would go to school typically
at say 5 or 6 years old. We would go to the basic school which we would call
kindergarten here, so the basic of things you would learn, your abc’s,
counting, and then, of course it’s coed, all the schools were, right up to high
school. So then age four or five or six or so you go to school and learn the
basic things. Six years old you enter All Age School and you stay in that
environment from say age 6 to age 12 or so, and then come around age 13 there
were external exams you would take to go into high school. So going into high
school was not a given as it is here, there are external exams you have to
take, and then the results would determine which high schools you got into.
Sort of like what you have here when you apply for colleges and you have the SATs,
and the scores of those determine what university you go to. So in the all age
school, the results of those exams determine what high school you go to, so
it’s different.
A: So um, were the high schools located outside of the rural
communities?
S: No. So I grew in Golden River and that’s where I grew up
and lived, and the adjoining town is Above Rocks, and that’s were the schools
were, all three of the schools. So the Basic school, then All Age, which would
be the elementary, and then the high school. So in otherwords, each community
might have their own high school, or you have one high school serving a cluster
of communities, so they were far and in between. So my high school served a
big, a very wide range of communities. So you have children from all
communities going there as opposed to here in Branford, you have Branford
highschool and that’s just for Branford high school, Branford students, so
there’s a difference there.
A: right, right. Um, Sort of some of them were regionalized
in that way.
S: Yes, definitely yes.
A: So um, you had mentioned over the phone that you spoke a
local dialect, does that differ from patois?
S: It’s the same, it’s patois.
A: So when you went to school, it was instructed in English?
Can you describe to me that dynamic, where patois was spoken in the house,
home, versus in the classroom?
S: So when you are within your community where you have your
friends your talking the patois among your friends, your parents. When you go
to school, you are taught to speak the English Language, and even though you’re
using the patois language within the school setting, you are being taught to
speak English or the English language and its proper usage. So the both were,
you know, correlated, the both were being used, we’d flip flop between the two
just if I’m here, and I’m speaking to one of my sisters I am speaking the
patois most of the time, I find myself flipflopping, between speaking how I’m speaking
to you now and speaking the patois.
A: So, speaking of your sisters, could you give me the names
of your siblings, and where you sort of fall in the hierarchy, not hierarchy,
but age, in that way.
S: Yeah, sure so, sisters and brothers, there are ten of us
siblings, and I am number eight.
A: Oh! Ok, um…
S: Would you like to know their names, you thought I would
say there were two of us.
A: Well that was one of my questions, I won’t ask you for
all of their names, but could you tell me what it was like growing up in that
size of a household? That’s really amazing to me, my grandparents are from
Greece and when they would tell stories about their communities’ they were all
large families, so it’s interesting to see how that changes relatively swiftly.
S: Yes, so in my community that I grew up, again it’s rural
and not many people leave the community. So my mother had sisters within the
community so we got to grow up with our cousins right within our community; we
could walk to their homes and vice-versa. So growing up also with that many
siblings, and the ages varies, so you’d have older siblings with younger
siblings and it’s just like growing up in any other home; we communicated with
each other, we played with each other, we were very close with one another
based on the fact that it’s a rural community you had to come up with things to
do together. So you know, I would say that we had loving relationships, like
any other families you had disputes with one another and work through them, we
had a lot of fun together, so just typical of any large family also.
A: So um, what kind of activities would you and your
siblings do growing up? You mentioned chores, but,
S: For fun?
A: Yeah, for fun!
S: For fun we would play jump rope, we’d play uh, tops with
our brothers, with the spinning tops, and those would be made from wood. We
would slide down the hills or the gullies, just typical rural stuff you would
do. We would chase each other, or you call that tag here, we would go to the
rivers for swimming, just visit friends or family within the community, typical
stuff like those. Again it was rural so we didn’t have any bikes or motorcycles
or anything like that.
A: Sorry I’m just crossing some stuff out.
S: It’s fine.
A: What kind of food would your mother make growing up?
S: Uh, potatoes, yams, curried goat meat, beef, chicken,
stews, vegetables, the typical normal foods.
A: Are there any sights or sounds, smells rather, that kind
of evoke memories of your childhood?
S: Of my childhood?
A: Well, family meals,
S: Well we cook those meals here, so that would be the
answer for that. We still cook some of those meals so we are surrounded by that
here in my home, in America, because we still cook some of those meals from our
childhood.
A: As a way of preserving and sharing those with your
children?
S: Certainly, of course, and having come here as an adult.
So I grew up there so I cook those meals here, so its not a matter of
remembering my childhood it’s just part of who I am. We’re living that still
even though we live here in America, so we still have that lifestyle and use it
to ground ourselves, because it was such a simpler lifestyle. So that’s part of
what we use to ground our family here, my husband and I to ground ourselves,
and ground our children. Everyday for us reminds us of being back home.
A: Ok I’m just writing something down real quick.
S: Sure take your time.
A: Um, did you live in, err, in Golden River for most of
your childhood in Jamaica?
S: Sure, so I lived there in the community where I grew up
from say ages, uh, birth through to about nineteen, right. Then I left that
community and moved into the city, where there were more opportunities. So I
lived in Golden River for around until 18 or 19, and then I moved into the city
for some work, and for my post-secondary education. And so from that age until
31 when I emigrated here. So I lived from age 19 to age 31 within the
environment of the city of Portmore, and worked there, and I emigrated here
when I was 31.
A: Ok, I just want to take a quick break and check the
recording.
(Recording pauses briefly, the file disappeared causing a
brief moment of panic but it reappeared within the application in tact.)
A: Ok, so you had just described to me briefly traveling
from the rural community to um, what was the name of the city?
S: The city that I traveled to was, uh, we would just call
it Breighton or Portmore. So that’s where I moved, from the rural community
where I grew, Golden River, Allman Hill, to Portmore with an older sibling, my
older sister. So when I moved to live with her, I went to business school. That
was the whole idea, to receive a post-secondary education so I did live with my
sister while I was going to business school.
A: So, could you tell me about how you met Clement?
S: We go from all that to how I met Clement,
A: I don’t mean to totally derail the whole,
S: No, don’t worry that’s fine, so I met Clement in 1996
when I was out running, and we ran into each other. We saw each other and,
well, we didn’t fall over literally but we stopped and starting talking and
that’s how we met. In September of 1996.
A: So, after meeting each other, how did you get to know one
another better?
S: So we lived a few blocks from one another, in Greater
Portmore, and so that’s where Clement and I met, and you know it was just a
normal relationship where you dated and you got to know one another. We spent
time with each other and just did normal dating activities.
A: When and where were you married?
S: We were married there in Jamaica in August of 2000.
A: Ok, and how was the wedding ceremony?
S: Typical wedding ceremony, big, lots of friends. Uh, it
was in a church, surrounded by our family and friends.
A: So uh, you had married Clement after, um, sort of,
establishing yourself in the city.
S: Mhm, Definitely.
A: So, um, can you compare the urban landscape and lifestyle
to one another? I know they (the differences) are stark but um, if you could,
S: Describe? Could you repeat the question?
A: Could you, sorry, could you describe the differences in
lifestyle in the urban and rural communities?
S: Oh like it’s like night, and then day. So in the
community I grew up we had no electricity, we didn’t have running water within
my home, so our water source was going to the river collecting water and taking
that back home or the rain, catching the rain water when it falls. That was
growing up, in the city you have all the amenities. So really it was night and
day.
A: So traveling to the city in the late 80s must have been,
was it a culture shock in that way? How often would you travel to the cities
prior?
S: Prior to that, just very, very seldom. We would travel to
the city if say there was a school outing, like a field trip, or uh, if you
were going to visit family members that lived in the city, or if you were going
to the doctors. So your visits to the city were very, very, very limited, more
purposeful than anything else. So it wasn’t so much of a culture shock, the
fact that I visited there, so I kind of knew what to expect, the buildings, the
paved roads, I had imagined the motor vehicles on the road and things like
that. I wouldn’t call it a culture shock per say because by then I was aware of
what it would be like, but just not living there. But acclimating yes; growing
up walking everywhere and now you have public transportation or a motor vehicle
to travel in, so those were stark differences. There was electricity, running
water, you were surrounded by more people, you know, it was a bigger
environment for you to navigate, but I didn’t see it as much of a shock because
that was the next phase of my life and I was excited to enter into that other
phase as my life was progressing.
A: Could you describe to me your daily commute as you were
attending business school?
S: Right, so my sister drove; she worked within the area
that I went to school, so she would drop me off at school, and that was in the
morning. In the afternoon, because I got done with school before I got out of
work I would take the bus, or just the public transportation to get back home
to my sister’s house where I lived.
A: And what where your classes like? In business school?
S: The classes were just generally centered around the
business idea, and um, smaller classes, about 20 to 30 pupils per class. They
would go from maybe 9 o’clock in the morning to about 2:30, so it was similar
to a high school or college setting.
A: Ok, and after graduating, how were you able to apply that
education to your career?
S: Right, so after that I became a secretary, that’s what I
did, and I was able to apply some of those skills I learned in my everyday job.
A: So um, when did you have your first, er, did you have
Kurt (your first child) when you were living in Portmore?
S: So Kurt’s my step-son.
A: Oh, ok. I see. (we laugh)
S: So I inherited Kurt when I got together with my husband.
A: And Gianna you had after, er, is she your step-daughter
as well?
S: Gianna is my biological daughter. That I had, I had her
at age 25, and she is not, she’s my husband’s stepdaughter. So when my husband
and I got together we brought two children into the relationship.
A: Right, ok.
S: And they were both born there in Jamaica.
A: So could you describe to me, I did some quick mental
math, so Gianna wasn’t, didn’t spend that much time growing up in Jamaica, what
was it like raising a young child in Jamaica?
S: Uh the typical, the same as here I would say. The same as here. It was just her and I most of the time, she went to school and we had a community of friends and family, so everybody helped. It takes a village, so I did have a village of family and friends who supported me and supported here and helped with her upbringing. So she went to a day-care, prior to her going to elementary school. Up until maybe age four, and then she entered a prep school, which would be a private school on the island, so she went there and continued to go there prior to us emigrating.
S: Uh the typical, the same as here I would say. The same as here. It was just her and I most of the time, she went to school and we had a community of friends and family, so everybody helped. It takes a village, so I did have a village of family and friends who supported me and supported here and helped with her upbringing. So she went to a day-care, prior to her going to elementary school. Up until maybe age four, and then she entered a prep school, which would be a private school on the island, so she went there and continued to go there prior to us emigrating.
A: Sorry, (I pause and review my notes) What kind of hijinks
would Gianna get into as a child? Like, would she get into anything goofy or
get into trouble?
S: Well you know, you would jump on the bed? She would go
over to the neighbor’s house and I wouldn’t know where she went. So just the
typical stuff, playing with her friends, going to parties, just normal things a
childhood things.
A: mhm, so um, prior to 2001, did you know or have
family/friends who had immigrated to the United States, or had you traveled prior yourself?
S: No, but I did have family and friends who live here. I
had a brother in Boston, and he came I think around 1995. My sister immigrated
here in the early 90s, uh, I had a sister who had emigrated to Florida in the
early 80s, and uh, friends and cousins as well, so there were people living
here who were my family and friends.
A: Ok, and um, had you communicated to them as you were
getting ready to, had you asked them about what their experiences were prior to
coming?
S: No, no not really. I had read magazines and sort of saw
the fluff of it all so I imagined that it was all like what I saw in the
magazines and then when I came I realized it wasn’t. Yeah so I never inquired
much because up until that point in my life I didn’t really have a desire to
emigrate here. I don’t think I had the desire to even visit here because I
thought I was doing well by myself, so that idea to just go somewhere else
wasn’t really that interesting, at that time it was really nowhere in my mind.
But the opportunity just came up and that took me somewhere else in my life,
and that’s how I came here.
A: What influenced your decision to travel and leave
Jamaica?
S: My husband, because by then, during the period where we
were dating from when we met in 1996 to when we got married in 2000 his father
had been living here all the time, and he has family here. So he had been going
through the immigration process, where his father was applying to the different
departments to have him move here along with Kurt. So that’s how they came
here, and we were dating during that period, and then in 2000 Clement came back
and we got married, and then thus started the process of me coming here.
A: Ok, I see. Clement had been in the process,
S: While we were dating, yes, and then after we got married
that started the process for me.
A: So did you have family and friends in Jamaica who were,
how did they react to your decision to leave? Were they generally supportive?
S: They were generally supportive, but my friends were sad
because they wouldn’t get to see me as often. But most of my family and friends
were supportive, it was a huge decision for me to just leave my life and my
family life there and to come here. So that was a very, uh, while it was a
happy decision it was also a little bit of a, there was a melancholy I felt
about it, because I was leaving my family there. My parents were still there,
my friends are there because that’s all I knew. Even though I had siblings here
you weren’t that close with them because you weren’t in such constant contact.
So it was a melancholy kind of feeling, not sad or happy but inbetween. Happy
that I’m coming to start a new life with my husband and the children, but sad
because I was leaving what I knew behind.
A: How did you acclimate in the first year after immigrating?
A: How did you acclimate in the first year after immigrating?
S: Terribly. So when I moved here in 2000 I was pregnant, so
I came pregnant,
A: and that was with Tahj, your youngest son?
S: Yes, so I was pregnant with Tahj when I immigrated here
in uh, April of 2001. So acclimating I would say was really difficult for me. I
had the support of my husband and my extended family members that were here but
the part that I struggled with the most was that I felt alone. I didn’t feel
like I had a community like I had when I was there, of my friends and my
family. I moved here to Branford and I knew no one, so that was difficult for
me to get adjusted to. It was difficult also for me to be a stay at home mom,
since I had worked all these years, so I did struggle with that. And with the
family setting, as opposed to when I was there it was just with my daughter and
now I have a family, an extended family of my husband and Kurt and being
pregnant. So I struggled on a psychological basis in the first few years
immigrating here.
A: Not to jump back and forth, but I wanted to ask you about
when you were in Portmore, or Greater Portmore, how you sort of balanced the
relationship between your working and professional life and um, uh, raising
Gianna, in that way?
S: Uh, let’s think about
this for a minute,
A: You mentioned it took a
village,
S: It took a village, but I
don’t know. I just think that uhm, I think that a lot of the struggles that
families go through, or think they go through. I mean I had my daughter so I
had to do whatever it took, I didn’t see it as a chore, I enjoyed it, and I
balanced it by knowing I had to work and I know I had to look after Gianna.
Gianna had a normal childhood, she was involved in things at school, we went
out together, we spent all our time together. It was just normal for me, I
didn’t look at it as “oh this is such a chore,” because psychologically I was
in a good place, it was just what I did.
A: So, how did Gianna adjust
to the immigration process? Coming to Branford to be more specific?
S: Uh, I think she probably
struggled a little bit just because of the, uh, lack of diversity, within the
Branford environment, and I think that is something she struggled with growing
up. She didn’t grow up with children looking like herself, and I think she did
struggle with it in her early school years here. So uh, but she had us, her
family, and she made friends within her community, here, and we’ve lived here since
2001. So she made friends within the community, but I think the lack of
diversity was one of the things that bothered her.
A: What was your, why had
you and Clement chosen Branford to travel to and make your home?
S: So when Clement came, he
went straight to New Haven, because that’s where his family was, and uh, Kurt,
Clement and Kurt went to New Haven. And while Kurt was living here, Clement had
a brother and sister in-law living here in Branford, and Kurt spent some amount
of time with them here (in Branford). I think Clement liked the community and
chose to settle within, so when I came here Kurt and Clement were living in
Branford, and then I came and that’s how I ended up here. So I don’t think we
sat down and chose it per say, but Clement liked the infrastructure within the
community of Branford and we just kind of settled here. We didn’t sit down and
say “oh for this period of time this is where we’re going to settle,” and I
think that’s typical of a lot of immigrants, you just come to a particular area
and you stay in that area.
A: I was just curious about,
uh, Branford as opposed to someplace else,
S: New Haven?
A: Well New Haven or a more
urban like where you lived prior.
S: Well, right, so then I
didn’t have much to do with the decision, to say “lets live here in Branford,”
because that’s where I came to. It’s a good town, it’s a good infrastructure,
it’s separate than New Haven where it is a much larger community, and more
urban as to say Branford. I think maybe because we grew in settings where it
was much smaller, we probably felt more comfortable in a smaller setting.
A: So, do you feel as though
Tahj may have missed some experiences, being born and living in the U.S. his
entire life, versus Gianna’s experience traveling?
S: Well I don’t think Gianna
remembers much about her childhood in Jamaica, because she came here when she
was so young, so she just has distinctive memories. They are memories that
stick out.
A: So does she have more of
a sense of, not “Oh I went to school here and I would be doing this,” but
rather more, uh, events or places,
S: Right, so if you were to
ask her I don’t think she remembers a lot about going to the school that she
went because she was so young. She has memories of specific events, going to my
parents, where I grew up in the community. That was a lot of fun for her, being
with her grandparents and just getting to be free, run around and walk
barefooted and stuff like that. So she remembers stuff like that because it was
a fun memory for her, uh she doesn’t remember much about any friends that she
had at that age. Again, you tend to forget those things if you moved away from
those things at such a young age; I mean she was only six when she came here.
So I don’t think Tahj misses any of those things because Gianna doesn’t talk
about them. When we do travel home, and we’ve traveled home quite a few times
with Tahj, since he was young, he would see the contrast with how we grew up
there and how he is growing up here, there are no similarities at all.
A: So uhm, your parents
continued to live in Golden River, have you taken Tahj to visit them there?
S: Yeah,
A: you mentioned the um, he
of course acknowledges the contrast, (I pause to gather my thoughts) sorry,
S: No take your time,
A: I guess, when you revisit
it, is there a sense of nostalgia? What sort of feelings does that evoke?
S: For me? (I nod) So I came
here in 2001 and the first time got the opportunity to go home was 2005. I was
so excited to go home I couldn’t contain myself, and when the plane landed in Kingston
I was so overwhelmed I started to cry. I was just so overwhelmed because I
moved here and I just felt that I didn’t have such a sense of community and I
missed that, and I didn’t realize how much I missed it until the plane landed
and I was back in my familiar settings again. So I was so overwhelmed and
grateful and happy to be, uh, getting the opportunity to go back home and see
my parents, and friends and other siblings because I hadn’t seen them in that
many years. And when you grew up in such close proximity and being so close
with your family that’s a very long time to be apart from them. So I was so
grateful and happy to have the chance to do that. That was the first time that
Tahj went there, and also when Gianna and Kurt got the chance to go back to
Jamaica as well. It was a very happy time.
A: So uhm, I mentioned the
culture shock before, how did you, was there anything, any, what did you have,
What was the most difficult thing for you to adjust to? You mentioned the
psychological stress adjusting, but in the community was there anything you had
trouble grappling with?
S: Yeah, so again the lack
of diversity, so I didn’t see a lot of people that looked like me, and so the
apprehension is there about how you’re going to build friendships with someone
who is of a different ethnicity, than uh, you are. One of the things that
helped me was I became involved with my church, so there was a family that Kurt
was very friendly with during his young years, and they introduced me to their
church, and that really helped me a lot. So during the time when I was staying
at home, and I did stay at home from 2001 until 2005 when I worked here in
America, so during my time at home I was introduced to the family and I started
going to church, and uh, that’s where I started to build rapport and
relationships, and that’s what helped me start to get out in the community a
little bit more and help get acclimated.
A: And what is the name of
the church and its location?
S: The name of the Church,
it’s on Leetes Island Road, it’s the Branford Evangelical Free Church, and I
still attend to today. And also I mentioned that my husband’s brother, one of
his brothers live here in town, and my sister-in-law Anne Marie, so she really
helped me as well. We would get together, she would come over pick me and take
me to her home, I would meet others and develop friendships and relationships
with more people within the community, so that helped as well.
A: Did you become involved
in, um, your children’s education? Like, I guess, I’m curious if you um, got
engaged in school boards or the parent teacher organizations in any way,
S: I didn’t, I wasn’t
involved with any of that. You know, I would help them with their school work
when they got home, but I wasn’t involved in any of those things.
A: Did you, um, would you
participate, or, I’m trying to think,
S: Go to the conferences?
Yeah, school conferences,
A: Sporting events?
S: Oh of course, certainly.
They have always just played soccer, with the town, so I would take them to the
soccer events, mostly it was just with the school or town they would be
involved in. So I would take them to and from the games and the practices.
A: Did you find that was,
that was a helpful way of, sort of, bridging that, some of the apprehension
with the other parents?
S: Of course, definitely.
Because you get to talk about your children, you get to meet other families
with children and speak with one another. So that did help as well.
A: Ok, what sort of
similarities do you see between your Catholic parish here and the one you
attended at home? Er, in Jamaica, in Golden River?
S: So, excuse me, I don’t go
to a catholic church anymore, and um, I just segued from going to the Catholic
church from when I had lived in the city. So it’s been a while since I’ve been
to a catholic church, but I’m going to imagine they are all the same, it’s a
Roman Catholic,
A: I’m sorry I don’t mean to
interrupt, is it (Branford Evangelical Free Church) a protestant church or?
S: Roman Catholic, that is
the way I grew up. I attend an evangelical free church is what I believe it is
now. So that’s the name of the church, definitely not Roman Catholic, but we
read from the bible, we sing the hymns, we celebrate each other within the
church.
A: I’m just gonna check the
time (looks at phone, notes) Sorry I’m just taking a second to order myself.
S: That’s fine.
A: I guess I’d like to know
how actively your family considers yourselves members of the Jamaican Diaspora?
You mentioned that you cook and try and keep some of the traditions alive in
that way, so, what sort of a role does it play in your daily life?
S: I’d say it plays a role
in my everyday life, because I haven’t forgotten where I grew up, and again
that’s what keeps me grounded. It’s kept me humble, it keeps me grateful, and
again I moved here when I was 31 years old, I was already my own made adult. So
I still live my life, not to say that I still live there, but my values that I
grew up with, those are what I raise my children by and what I still live by.
So even though I live in the United States I’m still a Jamaican at heart, and I
remember the way I grew up and kind of use that within my everyday life. Some
facets of it are just involved in my everyday life still and will continue.
A: So uh, do you identify
with other Caribbean immigrants, or Hispanic immigrants specifically? I guess,
was there an active Caribbean community here that you were able to engage with
after traveling?
S: Here? No, some of my
siblings are here so, um, you know I’m close with them. Their friends that we
have here are Jamaican people that we have met, so we have kept in touch with
them. I am still involved with the American side of it, but we try and keep in
touch with the values that I grew up with. I’m not involved in any groups for
Jamaican’s per say, but it is still a very active part of my life.
A: Mhm, ok, so do you notice any differences in
attitudes towards multiculturalism in the United States versus the Caribbean,
or Jamaica rather?
S: What do you mean?
A: Well, in recent history,
very recent history, nativism has been on the rise in the U.S., and I was
curious how that plays, or uh, is there a similar sentiment towards, I don’t
know… How do Jamaican’s approach the question of immigration, that’s what I’m
asking?
S: So your thinking now,
with the amount of restrictions they’re placing on say, building the wall or
other things that relate to those,
A: Well, I’m more curious
about attitude towards, er, growing up, was there ever discussion about immigration,
or other people? I think I read that there was a small white and Chinese
population in Jamaica, and I was curious about the interplay between those
groups.
S: I mean, when I lived
there, I never, well the number of whites or say Chinese, that has certainly
grown over the years since I left. And I noticed that because when I would
travel home, I would see larger groups of them, or more of them involved in
everyday life, especially in the city areas. So I would imagine they are there
likely for work, just on a working basis, I don’t know if they have emigrated
there, maybe they are working on contracts for companies, and they travel back
and forth. I wasn’t involved with that when I lived there, if that is what your
question is leaning towards.
A: I guess, I think I’m just
curious about the attitudes towards the,
S: Ok the attitudes
Jamaican’s would have there towards somebody like you then if you were to be
there,
A: Sure,
S: I mean again, I wasn’t
around anyone, I didn’t know anyone that was of a different ethnicity then, to
say, living and working there. I wasn’t in close proximity while I was living
there, I never heard of any disparity when somebody was of a different
ethnicity, I never heard of any violence towards them, nothing of that sort. But
traveling home as I said, there was a larger population living and working
there.
A: Um, did you ever feel
pressured to assimilate or forgo certain aspects or traditions of your culture
after coming here?
S: No, no, I’ve not
experienced any of that, and I can say that with certainty.
A: Ok,
S: I just feel like I can be
whatever I am, I don’t feel any pressure to be different.
A: Um, you had mentioned
something earlier about differences in lifestyle, I think when we were talking
about how Gianna was adjusting, what would you say is the largest difference in
lifestyle when living in say, Portmore versus Branford?
S: The major difference that
I’ve noticed is the lack of community. By my community I mean a support system.
And it could be that I’ve just not been exposed to a situation where I see that
existing, but that would be, if I were to point any differences out that would
be it for me. I felt like when I lived there I had more of a sense of community
within my community, whether it be your neighbors or friends, it felt like you
were just supported. You had a community that supported you but it’s such a
faster paced society here in America, and I think people would really want to
be that community, but they just can’t maybe because they have to work to achieve
goals or they’re busier. It’s just a faster paced society as opposed to on the
island where “it’s no problem man,” you know, that kind of thing. So that would
be the big difference for me with living and living here, I don’t always feel
like I have the sense of community where I have a support system. I don’t know
if could be apprehension on my part to try and build that system, but that’s
the one thing I could say is completely different.
A: I think, um, that’s
something that’s been on the rise, it’s a trend, where life seems to be
accelerating rapidly. So I treasure moments when we’re able to sit down,
S: To talk about it,
A: Right, and sit down and
have that sort of, a moment to breathe.
S: Definitely, right.
A: Um,So you mentioned you
started working again in 2005, what did you do?
S: What did I do? So I
became a bank teller at Citizens bank, and I’m still doing that today, except
now I’m with a different company as a lead teller. So that’s what I’ve been
doing since 2005 when I started working here.
A: Do you feel that working
again after having spent some time raising your family and, did it help sort
of, readjust, or um,
S: Get back some kind of
independence?
A: Yeah, and, uh, can you
speak to that a little bit?
S: Yes, and I am grateful
for the time that I got to spend at home in the formative years with the
children, especially Tahj, because that’s paid off a whole deal. We got to
spend time together, I think it really helped that I was just here, I think it
made for a stronger family unit, so I was here at all times with the children
at home. But it was exciting to start working again and have a little more
independence of my own and to contribute to be able to contribute to the family
as well. So it was an exciting time.
A: Just trying to think if
there are any other specific things I have to ask. Thank you so much this was
more than I could have ever asked for.
S: It was my pleasure.
A: I am curious, what are some
of the dishes you still like to cook?
S: That I like to cook?
Curried Goat, I cook curried goat at Christmas time, or if we’re having family
over. There’s ox tail that we would cook there as well. And um, trying to see,
we don’t make a lot of the Jamaican dishes anymore, especially since we’re
gearing towards a healthier lifestyle, cause some of the Jamaican dishes are
very rich, rich in calories and um, carbohydrates as well. I like to make rice
with beans, even though I don’t do it very often. There’s ackee and saltfish
that I would make from time to time, which is our national dish in Jamaica.
A: Could you say that again?
I just want to write it down
S: Ackee, A-C-K-E-E, and uh,
saltfish.
A: Ok.
S: Saltfish I mean dried
cod, salted, dried cod, so that’s our national dish and I would make it here
from time to time here as well. And Soups, rich soups, chicken soup with
pumpkin, so those are some of the things that I enjoy making when we’re having
family and friends over.
A: I think uh, food is
really the most evocative thing
S: It sure is, it’s
comforting as well.
A: Well that we get to share
with one another. My family we still, our cooking is very Greek, so it’s nice
to have that connection that, as you said, is very grounding.
S: It really is, and it
brings you together and your family all know it so they know what they’re
having, they remember it from their childhood, and it’s nice to be able to do
that and to get to together. Even though we’re not living there it’s still nice
to have that little part where we can say “ok this is something that I’m going
to prepare, that I know everybody is gonna get to partake of and enjoy.”
A: Um, ok, so is there
anything you would like me, or any other future students or researchers to know
about your experience?
S: I think we’ve covered
enough for what you’re looking for,
A: Ok Georgia, thank you
again so much, this was more than a pleasure and more than I could have asked
for. I’m gonna end the recording now we’ll finish up.
(Recording ends, we discuss
briefly again the destination of the transcripts, and I promise to provide her
and her family with a link and copy once it is prepared.)
Narrator: Dr. Carlos Antonio Torre
Interviewer: Jared Mutsumi Dennehy
______________________________________________
Key:
BOLD: Dr. Torre
Nonbolded:
Dennehy Bracketed [xxxx] Text: Unspoken notes or actions, laughing, etc. Font style will follow whichever is in use at the time.
Parentheses (xxxx) text: Speaking at the same time the current main speaker is talking. Follows the bold/nonbolded format.
______________________________________________________________________________
[0:00:00] - This is Jared Dennehy
interviewing. Dr. Carlos Antonio Torre before we begin as required in the
procedure, we must provide on record that you have read the consent form and
therefore approve of this interview. Hmhm, I do. To summarize
for the recording, this interview is being conducted for the History 480
Seminar in Oral History course here at Southern Connecticut State University.
The principal investigator is Dr. Carmen Coury, assistant professor of History
here at Southern. The purpose of this research is to collect oral histories of
members of New Haven's Caribbean born community and digitally archive them for
research or use at the New Haven ethnic Heritage Center as well as the digital
New Haven website. By participating in this project you will be interviewed by
a student within the course, me. Ah, the upcoming interview is expected to run
approximately 90 minutes long and may require a follow-up session in case of
any clarifications in regards to the interview being needed. This is a minimum
risk study for its participants due to recalling personal memories and stories
of your life. There is a possibility of recalling those memories that may be
unpleasant or upsetting. Should it ever become to much you can request a break
or to stop the interview. Participation will however ensure that the history of
New Haven's Caribbean immigrant Community is remembered and made available for
future Generations. Once more your participation is completely voluntary you
can withdraw at any time. Although the recording will be destroyed, the
interview will be transcribed. These transcriptions will be used by the history
480 course for their final projects. And if you permit, a copy will be
preserved at the New Haven ethnic Heritage Center and or the digital New Have
website. Age gender year of immigration and country of origin will be available
to researchers, given the need to you may choose whether or not to be
identified.
No problem. (No problem) Terrible
picture [Both laugh] [In regards to a picture Torre was taking of the
consent form]. It, it didn't focus at all. Yea, okay, this ones' good.
I think I also gave you a copy aswell (Oh
did you? Okay) if you wanted a physical one.
Now do you want me to initial these over
here?
[00:02:22] Yes. Thank you. This is for
your initials. Aha thank you [Consent form was initialed and signed] (This
is yours). We will now begin with the interview. Once again, this is a life
history interview of Dr. Carlos Antonio Torre conducted by me, Jared Dennehy.
Alright Professor. When and where were you born?
I was born in ah, Santurce Puerto Rico, which is
uhm, ah, Santurce is one of the burroughs, if you will, of San Juan. Uhm San
Juan somewhat equivalent to New York City, has four boroughs. They're
called condados, counties, ahum, and I was born one of them in 1960.
[00:03:32] Could you tell me of life
there, ah before moving? What was it like?
Sure. Uhm, how much depth would you like me
to go into.
As much as you care to share.
Okay. Well, let's see. I was born there. I was
raised there until about the age of 8, and uhm we lived in a poor side of town.
We weren't you know poor per say... but ah, my father had issues with
drinking and often times, you know, even though he made good money, ah it
wouldn't last. So, you know, we had this house that we did not, actually it's
interesting we owned the house, but we did not own the land it was it was a
unusual - Well, not Unusual for Puerto Rico, but unusual and in many other
parts and people, you know would have a hard time understanding, better in fact
that is connected to what's part of what happened after Hurricane Maria because
a lot of people would maybe own the structure, but they wouldn't own the land
and they couldn't prove ownership and so FEMA would refuse to give them money
and that sort of thing and others they had, you know built the house, on some
land and because they built their own house, they never got any documentation
for it. And so ah, then FEMA says, "You know, we can't give you because
you can't prove ownership". And there was no mortgage there was no uhm,
you know people just made their own house. Ah so that was kind of the situation
there and uhm, ah, I remember I had'a two half-brothers. It was a situation,
very interesting because my father was much older than my mother. And you know
when they got married and he... it was one of those things, that dangerous
words like in English the dangerous words would be "oh by the way",
right, and on the honeymoon night she heard those words in Spanish ah...
"By the way, ah I have two kids" which she didn't know anything
about, "...and they're coming to live with us". So she or she is a
young girl probably even younger than you know than the women in my, in the
class today, right then your classmate, classmates, and now she's having to
raise two preteens right. And ah, and I wasn't born yet. But later on when I
was born and she had all this situation there. I still remember some of the
stuff. I used to play a lot by myself. Ah, ehrm... I don't recall too many
other kids my age and my brothers were older, and I would, you know, I would be
the little pesty kid trying to get into their games, playing baseball and
whatever. I still remember one incident. Somehow it got burned into my memory
and probably you might understand why it, that little kid, we were playing
baseball and you know, we didn't have money for proper equipment. So we, they
were using broomsticks as bats and tennis, not tennis balls, I'm sorry, what do
you call those... ah jacks, you know those little balls that you used to play
jacks... (Bouncy balls?) Yea bouncing ball, those little, tiny
ones, about the size... maybe a little bit bigger than a quarter but the size
of a half dollar coin. And uhm. I kept pestering them to you know, "let me
play let me play let me play". And finally just to get rid of me, they
thought they were going to strike me out and then I'd be out and I wouldn't
bother them again, and instead, I mean not by skill, but I guess by luck, I hit
the thing and it flew so far they never found the ball. So [laugh] that's
why I guess that's why it it's burned into my memory. And so that was that was
the end of the game, because they didn't have another ball, ah, but it was that
kind of a, of a lifestyle uhm. And let's see. I did, you know, I had a lot of
cousins and we got together often. The families would visit each other;
brothers, sisters, aunts, you know, cousins and that sort of thing, we were a
pretty big family. My mother had ah, I'm still trying to figure out exactly how
many brothers and sisters she had but they were at least 12, right? And ah, so
you know, ah, the family originally comes from a town in the center of the
country known as Comerio, that's C O M E R I O, and ah, that's a very
indigenous town, you know, and well, you know, and now people are starting to
recognize that, and you can tell I have I have a lot of Native American in me
and it comes from, basically from that area. My grandfather, her father - I don't
know much about my father's side of the family. I had one uncle that I was, you
know that I saw often and his daughter who was a little older than me, but
that's basically it. I didn't know that side of the family very well. They were
more I guess... European in appearance. Probably Spanish, although I have...
you know, we keep our last names and sometimes you can remember back several
generations because of last names, I can go back seven generations. And of
those seven generations three of those last names are Spanish and four are
Italian, so when I had my DNA done, which I wasn't totally satisfied with
'cause all they gave me was you know, like background I didn't get a lot in
terms of um, percentages and all of that. But it showed that, you know, Native
American obviously and then... ah, Iberian is they put it, which would be a
combination of Spain and Portugal and whatever. And then southern Europe
including Italy, no big surprise, and Greece. So that - and then other stuff in
there, which I'm a little bit of Irish, little bit of British. Well actually
two forms of British um, and even some Scandinavian and whatever else, but you
know, that's not surprising in Puerto Rico, because you get all these different
mixtures and people came from all over. People, here in the US, people have a
tendency to see you know, any Latin American as all being uniform or whatever,
but that's not the case at all. As a matter of fact, in Puerto Rico you you
might even had a bigger mixture than you had in the United States because
people blended, and ah - you know, there was there is racism, there is racism
everywhere, but it wasn't the same kind of racism as in the US and there ah,
um, there was more at the time, more of a color consciousness than there was a
racial consciousness if, if that makes any sense. For example, uh, If two
brothers with the same parents, one comes out darker and the other one comes
out lighter, which is very common, well the... it's ah ah father of a daughter
wouldn't mind her-his daughter marrying the lighter one but uh - and it's the
same DNA it's the same thing, you know, they're from the same parents and
whatever so, you know, it's that that sort of thing but even there it wasn't
such a strict kind of thing as it was in the United States. Ah I don't believe
there was any, you know, racial laws against people marrying as in the United
States until fairly recent, some people are still alive when it was illegal to
marry people of another race in the United States. Ah so you know, ah what else
can I say? Like I said, I-I used to play with whatever I could come up with.
Sometimes, you know, I would pretend you know that I had a, like a little toy
car, and sometimes I really did have a toy car, but sometimes it was just like
a little block of wood that I would shape a little bit and pretend you know
that I was driving down the street or something like that. Um, and then there
were the other kinds of games that were popular then and interestingly, some of
those came back during the hurricane, because people had no electricity. They
had, you know, no no internet and so a lot of those older games were revised
during that period. And so some kids, for the first time, are learning these
you know, I don't know what it's called, but when you have kind of a metal
wheel, it's just like a like a like a hula hoop, but it's made out of metal.
And then you would take a stick and kind of guide it along and see how far you
could get it without it ah, you know wobbling and falling on the ground. And
it- you know it was that that kind of game. The ah, you know, the other side of
that, you know, it was kind of a happy growing up, but the other side was that
my ah, my father had ah, a problem with alcohol, as I said previously, and ah
he was the nicest person when he wasn't ah, when he wasn't under the influence
of alcohol. But when he drank, it was Jekyll and Hyde, really Jekyll and Hyde.
Ah, most of his colleagues and his business associates knew him when he was,
you know, not drunk and so, all they knew of him was this wonderful person. And
I still remember when he died, and I went to the banks and different places to
see what he had left ah, and they found out that I was his son. Wow, they
treated me royally. Like wow, the, "One of the best people we've ever met.
Never a harsh word coming out of his mouth and such a gentleman", and all
of these other things. And they treated me very very well because I was his
son. But on the other hand, as you saw in the in the ah the two chapters I
shared with you, he would beat the hell out of my mother, right. And ah, when
he got really drunk, and at some point my mother said, you know, I'm not going
to take this anymore. And it was very ah, very unusual for that time and place,
right ah, because most women especially in Latin America other places, you
know, they said well, I guess this is my lot in life and I don't know what I'm
going to do if I leave this guy and you know, will I starve to death and all of
these other kinds of things. So, but my mother said "No, I'm not going to take
this anymore" and she decided to run away. Ah, and that's in there. I
don't know if you want me to retell it. (Hmhm) (Okay).
[00:16:09] So. The ah, the relationship with
your father is the... would have been the main motivation for you (Yeah)
coming to the United States?
Yeah, it was, it was essentially the only
because there was no reason for us to come to the United States. And ah, you
know, had my father not squandered his money the way he did on drink and
whatever uhm, we would have been okay. And you know, he worked on, and he
worked on the docks and he went, you know, he was uhm, um, he wasn't a
professional. I don't think he, I think he only had like a high school
education. Maybe not even that. But um, he was a smart individual and he got
in. There was a, there was a Puerto Rican shipping company that was called ah,
of all names, Bull- Line. Bull like the animal right, the Bull Line. And the
owner of that, you know took a liking to my father and he was kind of his
helper. So he was, you know up there and making a lot of money and um, at one
point he made my father his chauffeur. But you know as his drinking got worse
and that sort of thing, they would not get rid of him because they liked them
and again, you know, he was a good worker ah. But they would... he kept getting
less responsibility, within the corporation, and ah, at one time, this was much
much later. He was essentially a longshoreman... right? I guess it would be the
equivalent of a longshoreman. So he was hauling packages and whatever, loading
ships and that sort of thing. I don't know whatever happened to that Line, if
it just disappeared or if it was sold, but ah. When my mother decided to
leave... she plotted with my uncle, her brother. And my uncle pleaded with her
don't leave, you know, come and stay with us. And she said you know that her
husband knew the country like the back of his hand and there's no way you know,
he's going to find us and he's going to take us back and he could get violent
and that sort of thing. So, they um, they made this plan, where you know, my
mom was working in electronics. There were all kinds of companies that had uh
set up in Puerto Rico at the time, there was this electronics firm and she, you
know got a job there. I don't know exactly how or when or whatever, but she got
a job there and one day, I don't know if she told her boss that she wasn't
coming back, but one day I knew something was happening and... you know and as,
as you saw in that story, I actually tried to stop one of the beatings that he
was giving my mother. Um, somewhat I guess successfully or not. I'm not, I'm
not sure because, in my two half brothers when they saw, you know, the beating
he was giving her they started crying. They were still somewhat kids. I mean
they were preteen. And I was the baby of the family, ah but um they started
crying and ran away to hide and at some point I just, I grabbed the knife, I
was 5 years old or something. I grabbed the knife and I went to attack him and
I have no memory of what happened there. But I imagine that the crowd that had
formed outside, cheering him on. ah realized that this was serious for the
members of this family. And somehow when, when, when my consciousness comes
back, I have no knife. My father wasn't- that I wasn't hurt in any kind of way and
the fighting had stopped. So hopefully, uh somebody in the crowd came up and
said, hey, no, we can't let this go on any more, somehow took the knife away
from me and separated them, and that was that. But, I guess my mom took about
two or three more years of that. And at some point she just said no, so she
plotted out with my uncle that we would um, that should would leave and
obviously take me. She wasn't going to take his kids, that probably would have
been illegal. So she left them behind and, and and ah, one morning I realized
that my father had gone to work, he always went first, and my mother was still
hanging around the house, and it would have been time for her to have gone to
work, but she wasn't going. So I kind of figured it out, in my young mind,
I figured okay, something's happening here. I intuitively, I think I feel I
know what it is, didn't question it, and went along with whatever she asked me
to do. And so she had uh, two suit- I don't remember if we had two
suitcases, one for me one for her, or just one suitcase in which all of our
stuff is put, because we didn't take very much. Um, and ah, my uncle came to
pick us up and in Puerto Rico, you always have, for the longest time, ever
since I remember, something that is in in the local culture is called "El
tapón", which may, which essentially means the bottleneck but the
bottle, the stopper in the bottle neck. In other words, traffic jams, traffic
jams. And people still use those as excuses, you know, you know, you're late for
something. Like "You know that bottleneck was so bad this morning, you'd
never believe it." Yeah, anyway, but it is endemic, because Puerto Rico
has almost one car for every two people. It's just ah. At one point, I think
percentage-wise, it had more cars per people than almost any other part of the
world including China. You know the world's most populous country. Um,
percentage-wise. And at one time it actually had more cars than China. You're
talking about relatively small country about the size of Connecticut with three
and a half million people. Right, the, for, so ah, a place like that, can you
imagine if Connecticut had more more cars than China had? But at one time,
China was not what it is today. So today, obviously China does Puerto Rico many
many times in terms of the number of cars. They make them now, I don't know
what the percentage is still... if Puerto Rico still leads in percentage-wise.
That's something I'd have to look up. But percentage-wise for the longest time,
again, you have you know, one one car for every three people than one car for
every two and a half people and I think it creeped up to about one car for
every two people. I know this one family, um that had, well there were three
humans in the family, the mother the father and the in a small kid, and two
dogs, and they had five cars. So I guess even the dogs had their own car. So in
any case, that did us in, because on the way to the airport, that famous Tapon,
that traffic jam made us late. And when we got to the airport the airplane had
left. And, see in Spanish, "We did not miss the plane, the plane left us
behind" right? And ah so the plane left us behind and my mom starts, you
know asking. "Okay. So what can we do?" though by that time they only
had one flight per day, right leaving for Chicago, which is where we were
going. Most everybody else was going to New York City, but my two aunts,
actually three aunts let's say, had taken advantage of some recruitment that
had taken place mostly for women to work in the needle industry, you know, sewing
and whatever else. And so they had gone to Chicago, because that's where some
of the opportunities were. And my ah, my two blood aunts went, but you know,
the relationships are a lot more fluid and there was this other young woman
that grew up with them in the same neighborhood in ComerÃo. And they
called them, they called themselves sisters. And they always just say, you
know, she's my aunt even though technically she wasn't related and in the way
that we would commonly talk about being related, but she was my aunt as well.
So there were three of them who had gone. In retrospect, I see that they were
young women maybe even, well they weren't girls 'cause I think they were over
18 at that time, but they were very very young woman. To me they were these old
ladies, because you know ,as a little kid, they were much much older. So um, my
mother and I went to live with them. And the problem was that there was only
one flight per day. And so they had I guess the equivalent, I don't think they
call it that, but they called them to have a wait-list. And so they put us on
that wait list and there were other people who also missed the plane and that
waitlist, uh and when it came time, oh, well, we had to stay overnight and my
uncle insisted that we go and stay with him in his house. And my mom said
absolutely no, you know because he, when he comes home from work, he will
realize that we have left and he will come looking, come hell or high water,
and the first place is going to look as your house and my and my other brothers
and sisters houses. So there's no way. And he says "But what are you going
to do?" And she says, well we'll sleep in the airport and he says but you
know women don't do that, single women don't do that with a small child, you
know staying in, in in the airport, but there was no moving her. And she said
absolutely no, we're going to stay here. And my mom had thought of so many...
ah she was really really intelligent. She had thought of a lot of scenarios,
including, she had gotten tickets for her and me under fake names. So that ah,
even in those days, you know, it was a lot easier to get the manifest, right,
the flight manifest and all of that. And he could have just asked for them and
see, look for our names and then know when, you know, when we were on that
flight and just waited for us or whatever. And so she did, she she put fake
names, even though that we could have lost everything, because flying under
fake names, you know, anything happened you would lose your rights. I don't
know if we would have gotten arrested for faking the names, but whatever. And
then the other thing she did was she looked for a spot... in the airport, where
she and I could sleep, that was hidden away. And you know, bring on any
suspicion that somebody could be hiding back there... and it all worked out for
the better because my father eventually did go to the airport. He figured you
know, she is ah, she is what you call creative enough that you could just leave
the country. So, he did go and I guess somehow he demanded the manifest of the
different flights and because we had fake names, he wouldn't find our names.
And as I understand it, he actually passed within feet of where we were
sleeping, but he couldn't see us because we were hiding away. And the next day,
what happened was that uh, uhm, my mother goes up, you know, they start calling
out the numbers. And I think my, I don't know I'll make it up, but I think my
mother had like number 30, and they get up to...30 and they call her number and
she says okay and then she grabs me and start going and that was, that was the
last number they called. So as we start going in they stopped her, and they
said you can't go in, and she goes "you just called my number. They said
yes, but you have a child, and he doesn't have a seat. And she says well, you
know I had a child when I registered for this waitlist. You knew I had a child.
So why did you just give me one seat, they said because you didn't say anything
about the child etc, etc, etc. And they start getting very bureaucratic and she
just kept arguing with them and arguing with them and finally... Actually, no,
I think I'm remembering wrong. It's right in the in whatever I gave you, but I
think they only got up to 29, or whatever the number was, I'm making it up, and
then there was, no there were no seats and then one of the stewardesses looked
up and said, oh there is one seat. So they put her on, but there was still not
a seat for me. And the long and the short of it is that my uncle was there to
see us off and somehow they communicated just by looking, making eye contact
with each other. And they knew exactly what had to happen. So as my mother is
arguing with them, and they're at the counter, it was in those days you still
had the walk up. They didn't have those tunnels that you walk straight into the
airplane. So you had to go down into the tarmac and walk across part of the
landing field and then, you know, go up the stairways into the airplane. And so
suddenly what she did was, that... she went under the rope and started running
down and the arrangement, that you know with the eye contact, my uncle grabbed
me and picked me up over the Rope, right? She grabbed my hand and we but just
started running. We ran down onto the field ran across the field, ran up into
the airplane and they're chasing us that didn't get us, you know to get us,
take us away, and we get into the airplane. And ah, she sat on the floor and
she would not move. And people came from everywhere, you know, trying to coerce
her, trying to cajole her, trying to you know, logic her into leaving and blah
blah blah. And she would not move and finally... At some point, they simply
gave up. I mean, in those days - today that would have happened. But in those
days nobody cherished the thought of forcibly taking a young woman with a child
off of a plane, you know against her will, kicking and screaming nobody
cherished it, at least in Puerto Rico they didn't. And so from what little I
remember, somebody said well this plane has to leave, and we don't need to
bother the FCC with this information because you know, the air plane will, will
go, it'll get there, nobody will know and blah blah blah and so they just
walked away. They threatened us with the FBI and 10 million things and they
just walked away at some point and my mom, they gave me the seat, and my mom
traveled on the floor for the rest of, for the flight going to Atlanta,
Georgia, right. Because airplanes didn't have the, the kind of range to get, or
at least that plane didn't have the range to go all the way to Chicago. So they
um, we landed in, Georgia. Yeah we landed in Atlanta and then there was a seat
in the second plane that we had to catch and we went all the way to Chicago.
Uh... but because we didn't have phones, you know, there was no, there were no
cell phones in those days or Internet or whatever, when we got to Chicago, we
were late. My aunt's, her sisters had come to pick us up at the airport, but
um, we never arrived. And when they saw that the plane arrived and we didn't
get off, you know, that they had no idea what was going on, they probably
figured we missed the plane and they just went back home. So, at that point
when we arrived in Chicago, there was nobody to pick us up and we had no way of
communicating with them. I don't even know if they even had a phone for us to
communicate. So we just took a taxi and my mom had a letter from one of her
sisters. We couldn't speak a word of English neither she or me and she just
pointed to the return address on that letter and the cab driver nodded and
showed us to the cab, took our luggage whatever, if it was one or two
suitcases, put it in the in the trunk, and we proceeded to, you know, to go to
where they lived which was on LaSalle, LaSalle Street, see if I can remember
the name... 12-something LaSalle street. But in any case, that was basically,
how you know how we got to the United States. I don't know where do you want me
to...
[00:36:49] Do you remember anything
specific about that first day in Chicago?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I remember. Well we went, we got
there like early in the morning and we had to go to sleep because you know, we
hadn't slept very much. Actually no, we got there late at night. It was like
midnight or one o'clock or something like that. So by the time we got there,
you know, we rang the bell or knocked on the door and you know, they opened it
up and then they realized you know what had happened and so... but they put us
to sleep because of, we were really tired. The next day. I don't remember if it
was a weekend or, somehow they, they were, they didn't go to work. I doubt that
they would not go to work because we had a ride to, although that's possible as
well. But it, all of them. You know, so I think it was a weekend. Maybe we
arrived on a Friday or early Saturday morning. And then this was probably a
Saturday morning and among the different things that we did was that they uhm,
my aunt's took us to the park. A well-known Park in New Hav-, in Chicago
known as Lincoln Park. And we went there, and... I had- oh I had never seen
snow before. So that when we got to the, it was freshly fallen snow when he got
to the cab and I still remember almost like a um, like a silent movie, getting
into the cab and as the cab drove along and you know, the lights weren't that
bright the streetlights were that bright, but they were kind of a yellowish
tinge because you know, that's what happens when you don't have bright lights.
Ah... and that yellowish tinge reflected off of the snow. And as the cab drove
along, it would glisten. You know we would see the glistening of the snow. So
it almost looked like a field of diamonds with that glistening and I was
fascinated by that. It reminded me of the story books I always read... that I
would read as a kid, you know, with fairy tales and all of that sort of thing.
And to me it looked magical. So we arrived at my aunt's house and they had us
sleep and the next day they took us to Lincoln Park. And they played a trick on
me. They they said oh, let's take a picture. And so they they they wanted a
picture just with me. And so they said- they stood me underneath a tree, and
one of my aunt's was there with the camera and the other aunt went behind me
without my noticing and just at the right moment, they kind of gave each other
signals and she shook the tree and all the snow came down from the tree and I
got covered with snow and I look like a snowman right, and then they snapped
the picture. I'd like to find that picture at some point. But uh, so that was
my first day there. I do remember, you know at some point I had to go to school.
It wasn't that long after that. They took me to a Catholic school. That was
fairly close by. Was it? It wasn't exactly walking distance, but you could have
walked if, if you had to, it wasn't that that far. And um, it was St. Joseph.
St. Joseph School, which was a K-8 school. Everything in Chicago was K-8. They
didn't have middle schools like here. Matter of fact, I, I, even being a
professor of education, I never heard of middle school until I went to teach in
Queens College in New York. And I hear my students talking about this middle
school, middle school this, middle school that, and I interrupted. I said these
middle schools you talk so much about, what are they in the middle in? Where
are they in the middle of? Like a middle of a field? Is that why you call it a
middle school? And they looked at me like "Professor, how can you not know
what a middle school is? Your our teacher of education, right?" I said,
what is a middle school day? They described it. And I said, why would somebody
want to do something like that? Why would you want to uproot kids, you know, in
in fifth grade and put them in a different environment and then uproot them
again and put them in a high school and all these crazy things? And I think I
can take credit for having gotten rid of almost all the middle schools in New
Haven, in my time on the board, because I talked to the superintendent. I says,
you know, this doesn't make any sense to me. And this is one of the reasons why
a lot of the kids are so disoriented. And they said well, you know, but you got
these big galoot eighth graders and they're giants in comparison to these
little babies, and you gotta protect the babies and whatever. I said, yeah, you
can do that so many different ways. One, you can separate them in the same
building, right, or if you're smart, you can actually get the older kids to
feel some responsibility for the little kids. They would feel useful and the
little kids, you know they're going to love that because they're always looking
for the attention of the big kids. And like I did, you know, with my brother's
I bugged the heck out of them because I wanted to play in their games. And
that's what we did in New Haven and there's only one middle school that that
doesn't have K-8 and that's because the land around it was too small for us to
build a bigger building so we could accommodate a K-8 or Pre-K8. and so it's
been it's been that way ever since so, let's see. What do you want me to go?
Because I can go off on tangents. And...
[00:43:27] When
did you start learning English? With, i- in school, or...?
Yeah or well, I didn't
speak a word of English and I told a story in class about my first day in
class, here, when you know, I was shocked by you know, how they had us eat
lunch in total silence. And then the nun one is yelling at us, you know, no
talking no talking and to me as a Spanish speaker. It sounds like "no
tocar, no tocar" which means don't touch. And sheepishly I said [Phrase
spoken in Spanish that was reiterated in English] "No, I'm not
touching anything. What do you mean? What do you want me to do?" And so I
decided that I was going to learn English better than than the the local kids.
That to me became a super important thing and I didn't want to be, didn't want
to be singled out. You know, I was a foreigner and all these other things and I
think it's in it's in that the second chapter or something where I say at some
point, I wanted to be black. Yeah [laugh], because in my 18 year old mind. You
know, they could somehow tell a Latino from the rest of, but it there was a
foreign black and a local black, they couldn't tell the difference. So I
thought you know, black is the thing to be. And then I think, I almost know
that part by memory. I never turned black, but I did- my English did improve
tremendously. And within a few months, I felt quite cocky about myself,
thinking I knew everything, every word in English because there wasn't one
word, you know with my classmates that I would ever have to trip over. And I
didn't realize that you know, that was such a limited vocabulary, but I still
had that situation, in which Sister Relendes, the the second grade ha- ah
teacher... was so how would you say? She was prejudiced, just wanna say
it straight out. She was very Prejudiced.. and ah about so many things. One,
she was this really short older lady, very old. I mean she looked, I don't know
how old she was, but she had so many wrinkles on her face that she looked to us
like she was over 200 years old. And you can't get that many wrinkles under 200
so, ah. And um, she was angry all the time. That's why I called her the
edgy...what you call... tightly wound Chihuahua, because she was just so little
and she was always walking around like this and angry and so forth. And so I
um, one day I ran to her, and I think that is the in the second chapter,
because, Billy a really popular boy in the school, had fallen down and he broke
his his pants. And in those days it was not stylish to go around with ripped
jeans or ripped pants of any kind. And so I ran to her trying to do him and her
a favor and say, you know, Billy fell down and got a roll in his pants. And I
think she understood but she was so prejudiced that she had to lash back at me.
And she said, she yelled at me in a very visceral expression on her face and
voice, it's a hole not a roll, why don't you let somebody who can speak
decently come and tell me? Right? So that was the thing- and I think that
actually... how would you say... um, really cemented in my desire to speak
English better than they did. And so within a year, I think I was very fluent
and my accent was somewhat similar to what it is now, so you couldn't tell the
difference if I had been born and raised in Chicago or you know came in from
someplace else. And I've always been a stickler for for language, any language.
And sometimes I joke with myself, maybe I should have been an English teacher
because I really get erked when people, you know misuse the language. They say
things like there's three cars on the lot know there is not three cars in the
lot. There are three cars on the lot. Yeah, and that sort of thing and when
they say there's a large amount of students, no there's not a there isn't a
large amount of students. There is a large number of students right? You can
count it, it's number if you can't count it, it's amount right? So that sort of
thing. I guess it comes from, you know from that strong desire to speak
English, you know, like a native and even better. And I happen to have lived in
Chicago which has the what is sometimes known as the no accent accent. The
Midwestern no accent accent, which is the accent that most radio TV and
other, you know, public speaking personnel are trained by. That's why you go to
Mississippi and they sound like Chicagoins, and they go to New York and they
sound like Chicagoins. Now a lot of that is changing. There is this, there's
this guy on NPR whose of Italian background and I'm blanking out on his name,
but ah. He has the stereotypical accent that you would find in the 50s 60s, in
the Italian Community and it sounds cool and you get other people, you know
with other accents and that sort of thing. But in those days, it was very
strict. You had to use the proper accent and the proper accent happened to be
the Midwest accent and I happened to be in Chicago. So, it kind of worked out.
right? So that's essentially how I learned English. Where do you want me to go
from here? So I don't keep going off.
[00:50:37] Growing
up throughout Early Education to high school, where you around other Puerto
Rican migrants and (Oh Yeah) were there any comparisons or differences
from maybe U.S Born Porto Ricans that you found between you (Yeah) you
and themselves?
Well, there were some,
but I didn't seem to run into too many of them who were born in the US. And it
was interesting because the community, there, where we ended up, was the center
of the Puerto Rican Community. It was sort of a ghetto at that point. Ghetto,
not necessarily a slum, just a ghetto, but uh. And that word is misused. A lot
of people, you know mean slum when they say ghetto. Ghetto just means you know
that you got collection - you have very rich ghettos you know, the Jewish
ghettos in Italy, that's where the word comes from. It's an Italian word,
ghe-tto. And it was the Jewish ghettos in Italy and obviously a lot of them
were super rich and so they have nothing to do with poverty, just the
accumulation of the same group of people. And sometimes they were controlled,
so that there was no outward mobility. You either lived in the ghetto or you
didn't live anyplace else because you weren't allowed to either, you know,
reside in some other part of the city or the whatever. Or you couldn't afford
it or many millions of possibilities. So, it was it was, there was poverty, but
it wasn't, you know, like deep deep poverty where you would call it a slum. But
it was around the time that gentrification started to become a thing. And so
they essentially lied to us and said that you know, we want to fix up these
houses and whatever so we have to ask you to move and you can come back in two
or three years when we finished the project. Like who's going to come back once
they've established himself for two or three years someplace else? It the make
any sense and they knew that. It was one way, I quote unquote a nice way to
tell us that we were wanted, but right now we can't have you here. It just so
happens that my... we ended up... Interestingly when we arrived, my aunt's
were living in the second floor of a Japanese family's house. And they were um,
they were really nice to me. And I don't know if they had asked my aunt's or my
mother to send me to pay the rent. Every every week we would pay the rent, I
guess on Friday or Saturday, and it was cash. Right? So, every time I went to
pay the rent they had a gift for me. So I still remember a lot of those gifts.
It was wooden puzzles of houses that I would put together, you know, three
dimensional kinds of things and different things. And I remember one day, I
don't know if maybe they didn't have money to buy me something a little more
expensive, they gave me a number of straws, you know to drink you know,
drinking straws, but they were special. They had a little kind of sponge in the
middle with flavoring. And so you could just take regular milk, drink it
through the straw, and it would come through that sponge and then it would
taste like strawberry or would taste like chocolate or you know, different. And
so I still remember the lady instructing me and how to use them. She says, you
know, they were Japanese, they didn't speak a lot of English and she would look
at me when she gave me the straws and said, "For drink, for drink",
and she would, you know, kind of model it for me and so forth. And said,
"Flavor, it got flavor inside or whatever". and I you know, I still
remember like that was like happened last week or something, you know, very
strong memories. And it was very nice. But then one of my aunt's had met a man
that, that you know, they fell in love and they were going to get married and
they did get married and he was interesting in retrospect. I realize that he
was kind of a go-getter. He was very much of a conservative kind of person and
he bought into the American dream and all of this other thing and he would
dress like, you know, a little hat that was popular at the time. Today, most
people wouldn't be caught dead with those, but... and he bought himself a
Studebaker which was the kind of car, you know, that somebody at the level that
he wanted to be would get. But anyway, long story short, they got married and
they move not very far, maybe about five six blocks away. And ah, actually I think
I still remember the address. It was either 900 or 800 LaSalle Street. So on
the same street that we were living, and at one point, I don't know the details
what happened if something happened financially or they just did this in order
to kind of help each other out, but it was you know, my two aunts my mother and
myself still living in the small apartment above the Japanese family, -er
family's house. It was a very tiny apartment and there were three, four, five
of us living there. And all it essentially is was like um, a medium sized room
that was divided, and on one hand they had the kitchen and the ah, a dining
room table. And on the other side, there was a living room and they had, my
aunt's and my mother, had figured out sleeping arrangements so that one of my
aunt's actually slept on a sofa they.... one other one had a cot, and then two
of my... was it two, my mother and one aunt and I would sleep in the bed,
right. So it was kind of tight, but to me it was no big deal, it's just the way
it was. And at some point, somehow the adults got together and decided that
they were all going to move into this one apartment that was in the
neighborhood. And even though it was you know, not the nicest of living
arrangements, this apartment had burnt down and so it was totally
reconstructed. And it was beautiful. It was totally revamped. I still remember
in all, the first time I saw the doorknobs, they, they looked gold to me, and
it was that fake copper or something, but it looked like gold. And... huge
apartment, it had two living rooms, two very large living rooms. Each living
room was bigger than the apartment that we had, the entire apartment that we
had previously. Then there was a dining room, and then we had one, two, three,
four, five, bedrooms in this thing. So they had made an arrangement that
everybody would move together, including my aunt who had gotten married and my
other two aunts, my mother and myself, and we each had ah our own bedroom,
except my mother and me, who you know, shared a bedroom. And then my aunt was
married, they shared a bedroom. So, that everybody was all, able to get ah,
their own bedroom. And we were there quite a while. Like... I don't know,
several years, two years three years something like that. And I still remember
bringing some of my friends home, and being afraid of, you know, not having
told my mother or my aunt's that I was bringing anybody home. So I... One of my
particular friends, African-American boy, I asked him to wait for me behind,
you know, the back door and stuff and then my aunt asked me to go to the store
to get something. So I passed by him and I said, you know... When I come back
from the store, he's inside in the dining room eating cookies and drinking
milk. And I said wait a minute, I'm not, I don't have any cookies and milk in
here, you know, they don't even know who he is and they probably just brought
him in, they obviously realized what the heck was going on. And they just
invited him in and he was helping himself to cookies and milk. And there, there
are, there, you know all kinds of adventures that I can recall and all going
on. And some some point... this is when they told the neighborhood that they
wanted to, you know, reconstruct the- fix the houses and that sort of thing.
Our apartment did not need reconstructing because it was essentially brand new
after the fire, but the rest of the building did and so they took everybody out
and there we separated. And my mother and I went to live on Ashland, just a
little bit north of Diversey Parkway, Ashland Avenue and Parkway... and
Diversey Parkway. And my other aunts went to different parts to, to live. But
the interesting thing, you asked me about the community and that sort of thing,
at that beginning while we were still in that apartment, in those two apartments
that we lived in there. The community, the Puerto Rican Community was fairly
small. And because it was fairly small, we were very united, very together.
Every weekend there was some activity, either a dance or party, you know, some
kind of get together. And that was like on a weekly basis. That was just a
normal thing, that we would always have fun and enjoy our um, you know, enjoy
each other and our company. But then, as the community started getting bigger
and bigger, became more and more impersonal. So to some extent it was almost
like having a hunter-gatherer relationship at the beginning, and then later on
it got into agriculture and industrialization, and now we didn't even know each
other's names. But then when we moved, and we did not move into Puerto Rican or
Latino neighborhoods. My mother and I were, ended up in this home of um, of a
Yugoslavian couple. They didn't have any kids and that's how I got a
Yugoslavian mother. Because they, you know, took a liking to me, and then she
called herself my Yugoslavian mother, and that was a really interesting time
when we lived in. Because they had a three family house and we lived on the
third floor which was actually an attic but they had converted into an
apartment and it was perfect for my mother and myself. We um, you know, the the
attic still had the slanted roof and at some point, just out of their own the
goodness of their heart, the, the Yugoslavian couple, Sam and Sora, Sora, they
decided they wanted to raise the roof and to give us more room and a little
more comfort and that sort of thing. They did that on their own. They didn't
have to do it. We didn't ask him to do it. And it was almost like living with
family because, you know, Sora was a very interesting character, you know, you
could write a novel about her. She was the kind of person I would consider salt
of the earth. She had come out of the, you know, second World War, a lot of
poverty in Yugoslavia. And I don't know if they had met over there, or if she
had met Sam or they had met in the US, but in any case she was just this rugged
woman who would do anything. If you had to chop wood she would be out there
chopping wood, if you had to, you know, plow snow, she would do that. She's
just very earthy. And ah, you know, she had never had a lot of that stuff in
Yugoslavia, So to her it was luxuries. And so, like ice cream. She would buy,
what you call, a quart or a gallon of ice cream. And in those days, they sold
them in boxes, right, as opposed to the round containers. And what she would do,
she'd invite me to the kitchen. She made these incredible soups and and she
would take the block of ice cream. She would take the the whole cardboard box
off around it. She would put an entire brick of ice cream in the middle of a
plate, take out a knife, cut it exactly down the middle, give me half, and and
she would eat the other half. And you know to a kid, you know, that was Heaven,
because can you imagine an adult giving you half a box of ice cream that you
could eat? And she was eating the other half. The other interesting thing about
Sora, many interesting things but, you know, like I said, we were always
together and sometimes we'd invite them up to have dinner. He was a barber at
the beginning, at the at the front end, you know, they had a barber shop and
they had a curtain behind the barbershop and then behind that was their
apartment. So they live in the same place and he cut people's hairs right
there. But either they would invite us down and we would have some their, her
delicious cooking, or we'd invite them up and my mom was an ec- outstanding
cook as well. So we you know, we had a good time sharing meals and sharing
stories and that sort of thing. But the other, one other interesting thing
about Sora, was that one of the other luxuries that you could never even dream
of in Yugoslavia was owning a car. And she went wild, you know, she would get
these new cars all the time, and then she would you know crash, and she didn't
even know how to drive and I don't even know if she had a license, right? So
every time, you know, she got into an accident and the police would come, they
never arrested her. They just kind of let her go because she'd come,
"Officer, I don't I don't know. This'a crazy car. I-I drive good but these
crazy car and goes into tree! So I don't know the crazy car!", and she'd
go on and the police officer would say go lady, go, get out of here, you
know. They would let her go and I would make a joke in Spanish. It
doesn't work in English, but I would say that... See you in Spanish the word
for the brand name of a car, and having you know, smashed it up having a dent
on it, it's the same word. So I said, you know, I don't know what brand of cars
Sora has, because every time she comes back, she has a different brand on it.
Right and it was like that and she would just keep bumping and into things,
into fire hydrants and whatever else, and you know, making mush out of these
brand new cars. But she would change it just about every other year, sometimes
more. And at that time, before we actually move to that place, my mom had met
the man who became my stepfather and she eventually married but they weren't
married yet and ah... He was the one who actually helped us get this apartment
because there was a lot of prejudice. Prejudice in more than one way one, you
know being Latino and secondly a lone woman getting an apartment, nobody would,
you know, do that, with a child. And so my stepfather, like my father, was very
white looking, and so, and he was a soldier. So strategically, when we were looking
for an apartment, he would show up as kind of like a man of the house. He
didn't, he didn't lie about, you know, being the man of the house, but he's
helping her up and he would show up in his sergeants uniform, right? And there
was a lot of respect for that. "Whoa Sergeant yes, and that" and
especially for somebody from Yugoslavia and some of the other people. Chicago
is very ethnically mixed, and a lot of um, a lot of white ethnics in Chicago,
you know, it had Lithuanians and Poles and Yugoslavians and Czechoslovakians
and Irish and a lot of, lot of white ethnics. And they didn't quite blend. So
it wasn't this thing about, you know, I never had this thing of all whites are
the same, because I know they weren't. The polls were really discriminated against,
the Irish at that time weren't that discriminated because they were a large
number and they were, they had some power. And even among the white ethnic
groups, they had divided things up. So the Irish were mostly politicians and
the Italians were, and oh the Poles were mostly policemen and the Italians were
a little bit of both, and you know, it was kind of like they had divided up the
different sources of power and authority and whatever, but a very very divided
City. Where was I going with this? So anyway, you know, we lived there for a
while, and we had, at some point, my mother, you know, wanted a lil' more space
and that sort of thing than we had in the attic and we moved exactly a block
down. We were still good friends with Sora and Sam, and we would go over to
their house which is only a block away and they would come over and that sort
of thing, so that happened. But my mother only had a second or third grade
education because in Puerto Rico, there was this, there was this custom, which
I think is also in the Philippines, of comadre compadre, which essentially
translates into co-parent, you know, co-mother, co-father. And it's a it's a
practice of the Catholic church, that you would um... You would get a trusted
friend to become your kids Compadre. No, I'm sorry your kids Padrino There's a
word for padrino... um.... Godfather. Yea their Godfather. And then,
automatically the parents and the and the Godfather became comadre or compadre,
depending whether you're comadre or compadre, depending on whether they're
male or female, and that was sacred. That was a sacred bond and you know, that
was sometimes even more important than family, than blood relationship. One on
the one hand, the role of that Godfather, godmother, was to make sure that if something
happened to the parents that the kids would be taken care of, right? It had to
take them into their home if necessary or at least of they were older, make
sure that financially they were you know able to make it excetera. And so... My
grandfather, my mom's father, he was the capitas, which is ah, essentially...he
was the boss of these people in the farm, you know, in this rural area. He
wasn't the owner of the land but he was the head honcho and so he could, you
know, tell people what to do and all of these. And so he was a good man and you
know, demanded, deserved a lot of respect and got it, and so forth. And one of
his compadres, one day came over and says, you know me and my wife we need a
girl to help us out at the house and that sort of thing, and can I, can you
send me one of your your daughters. And he had so many daughters, he sent my
mom. I think she was one of the youngest, but.... What my mom tells me is that
they essentially mistreated her. The woman, they weren't jealous of her because
she was just a little girl at the time. So it wasn't like any jealousy that the
husband was going to start fooling around with her, but they quite like her and
had her... instead of taking her in and letting her sleep somewhere in the
house, they would have her sleep in the dog house, outside. And would not allow
her to go to school. Because if she went to school she wouldn't have time to do
the chores. And it wasn't just helping around the house, you know, she almost
became like, you know, the person who took care of everything. And it was
interesting that my mom didn't go to school because this woman would didn't you
know wouldn't allow her to go to school so she could do the chores, and this
woman happened to be the town's teacher. Right? And she ran the school or she
ran the local school and would not allow my mom to go to school. So my mom,
when she got here, she only had I think at best a third grade education. But
she always wanted to have a profession of some kind and so she looked into,
what it's called a cosmetologist, beauty culture or beautician. She studied and
became that and opened up her own business and that sort of thing. That didn't
quite go as anticipated. I think it was open like a year and then you know, she
closed it down, but... Then she decided that what she actually wanted to be was
a teacher. And so only having a third grade education, she couldn't be a
teacher. She had to have at least high school at the time. And so she decided
to go to Wells Evening School. Wells School, Wells was a high school and
then they had adult classes in the evening. The GED was was an option, but she
didn't want to go through a GED. You know, the GED? (Yeah) Yeah,
she didn't want to go through with a GED. She wanted to get a real degree and
go to classes and the whole bit. So after after, after work, she would go to
school, every evening, until she was able to pass the test and got her diploma,
got her high school diploma that way. And then she went into school to learn
how to be a teacher and became a teacher. And went out and started teaching.
And so that has provided for me, you know, like real life example of you know
diligence and continuing forward. She, I would say that she was very effective
though, not very efficient, right? She would, if she had to to get over here,
she didn't know how to go from here to there, she would go around the planet,
but she would get there, right? And she did things in a way that weren't very
efficient, but they were certainly effective. And she got to teach and all of
that sort of thing. So at some point she met this woman, named Mrs. Weber, who
was one of her clients, because she was teaching she was teaching cosmetology.
She was a teacher of beauty culture, that sort of thing. And this woman, you
know, because at the school, in order to practice they would have the students
actually work on clients and it would be a lot cheaper for the clients... and
you know, you burn her hair off or something like that. Well, you know, that's
that's par for the course but most of the time that didn't happen and that's
how she met my- Mrs. Weber met my mom. Mrs. Weber happened to be the head nurse
at a major hospital in Chicago. And she became part of the family as well, and
her her husband, who I always called Mr. Andy, and he was the German, and she
had the name Weber. And so I thought she was, you know, German, and it
eventually it turned out when she died that I went to the funeral, I said who's
McGillicuddy? Her first name was Eleanor. I said, I know Eleanor Weber, but
whose Eleanor McGillicuddy? And then I found out she was really Irish. So,
different things happened, I you know, I then went to a school,another Catholic
school, that happened to be on the same block that... we moved from Sora's
house, Sora and Sam's house a block down to a house right on the corner. And on
the first floor they had a bar, Lisa's Tavern, and Lisa was you know working
there. There's another one of those hearty women who just, you know would
attack anything. Not dainty at all. And you know in retrospect, this wasn't
that, you know, that far away from the second world war. It was 20 years since
the second World War or something like that. So it it was not unusual to find a
lot of people who were refugees from that war, they come to Chicago, there is a
lot of work to be had. If you're a hard worker you could, you know, make more
money than you could think of. It wasn't a hell of a lot of money, but it was
more than you imagined that you were going to be able to make... and so people
would set up there. It was a very white ethnic community and they would set up
their own bars, their own barbershops, their own bakeries. My first job
was at the age of twelve, in Suffer's Bakery the, German family that lived
right next to this place where we moved in. And I was in the back cleaning
stuff, cleaning up the place. They had these huge vats that they would make
mixes and they would mix, you know cake batter or something known as streisel,
which I actually liked, but for some reason I must have been allergic to it
because as I started eating it my entire throat started itching and it's
difficult to scratch inside your throat. So um... what was I going to say? So
at the age of twelve? They hired me there as a Baker's assistant. And I did
things like selling Christmas cards and made enough to buy a bicycle and made-
buy some of my own stuff, because you know, my mother didn't have all that much
money. I still remember, in the attic apartment, we got our first TV. We
actually had a TV in Puerto Rico. So we were like the first family on the block
to get a TV. That was interesting too because in those days TVs didn't weren't
instant on. You would turn them on, they had to warm up because they use tubes
and he had to give it a while. And my father didn't know that and he went to a
furniture store and he bought this big looking TV and nobody else had a TV. So everybody
was invited over the night that we were going to watch TV. And the whole
neighborhood was there, some people were around outside because they couldn't
fit inside the house... And my father was always dressed in, you know, in a in
a suit, right? So he gets very proud in front of his TV, and he turns it on,
the click and he's waiting, nothing happens. He says looking around and he
doesn't know what the heck is going on. He starts getting nervous and at some
point, I guess to save face, he starts... he never used harsh language, but he
would you know say like, stupid, you know, and like piece of junk and
blahblahblah. He'd started yelling at the TV, right, to save face, you know,
like I spend money on this thing and look I got a piece of junk and blah blah
blah. I will never in my life even buy.... what did he say? I will never even
buy a button from that place again and blah blah blah,you know, just, you know,
going off to save face. And the next day I went with him to the furniture place
where he bought the TV and he's yelling at the at the salesman who sold them
the TV. And he says "this is a piece of junk and you have no idea how
embarrassed I was last night and all my friends in the entire neighborhood was
there in this piece of junk didn't work". And he said, "well, let's
look". So the salesman turns it on. He says, "see nothing
happens", he says "You have to wait for it to warm up"."
Oh, okay how long?" He says, about three minutes or something like that. You
know, just it's not instant on right? And so after about three three-and-a-half
minutes, whatever it turned out to be, the thing came on and is working
perfectly. And my father kind of put his tail between his legs and he walked
away and he did he did it over again and he explained to people that you know,
he wasn't quite understanding how the thing worked and and then you know people
would be over all the time because I was the only TV for a while. But guide me,
'cause again, I'm going to go off all kinds of places.
[01:24:22] It's no problem, just
looking at my time... Um. When did you start, or do you consider yourself an
American or...?
Well, that's an interesting question because you
may not expect the answer. Um yes I've always been an American. In Latin
America we are Americans right (Ah, right)? You know where I'm going
[Mutual laugh] right? And the United States has usurped the name American and
there's a lot of people who have already kind of given up on that but some of
us still... I know we are American. And I remember one time when I went to
Columbia, not that long ago, when I went to see the woman who became my wife,
and somebody put on my Visa, oh did I need a Visa? No I didn't need a visa but
some document that I need it. Oh because to travel with my son, they don't
allow you to take a minor out of the country unless the minor is accompanied by
both parents or one parent and a legal permission from the other parent and so
forth. Somebody had put on that legal permission that I was an American
citizen. And the woman says, you can't get, you can't leave here with your son.
I said why not? So she says, it says you're an American citizen. There is no
such thing. We're all Americans. All right? and I said lady, you know, oh,
you're a woman after my own heart. I believe that, I'd.... that's that's what
I, you know, always say, so please let me go by. No, I can't do that, right?
You've got the wrong paperwork, that says it that you're an American citizen.
There's no such thing right? Bababababa. And I go, please lady I beg, you I
gotta go, I'm gonna miss the plane whatever. And she didn't, so we had to rush
to another... See, in Latin America, notary publics have to be lawyers first.
It's not like here, that anybody pays whatever it is, 50 bucks and they get a
stamp and they charge you a buck or five bucks or whatever and they notarize
something. In Latin America, only lawyers can become notary publics. So we had
to go to a lawyer. We had to find a lawyer, we had, to you know, tell him what
happened and do the paperwork all over again. And here I'm rushing against a
clock and he finally did it and we're rushing back to this place where we
needed this other document and finally got it, but it was all because somebody
said that it was an American citizen and there is no such thing as American citizenship.
There's Colombian citizenship, there's U.S citizenship, Canadian, right? And
the lady just simply would not let it, you know, go. So yes, I, I've always
been an American and I'm not from the United States and I don't feel like I'm
from the United States per say. And in some ways, I can say that I've never
gone to the United States. The United States came to us, right, and took us
over and are still holding us, you know, there against our will. We were
in autonomous nation when the United States took us over. And the U.S had no
right to ask for us. We had nothing to do with the so-called Spanish-American
War. We weren't part of that. And Spain had no right to give away what a nation
that they had already declared autonomous. But U.S asked, and Spain was weak at
the time and they capitulated and gave us over and that was the legality the
U.S needed to say that we were now property of the United States. And we're
still property, you know, after a hundred twenty-five years now, we're still
property of the United States. We're not a state. We're not a you know, they
would call an unincorporated territory. But all that means is property. I
consider Puerto Rico not a territory of the United States nor a part of the
United States. I consider it a possession of the United States the same way as
if I took your your phone right now, it is your phone but it's in my
possession, right (Right)? So I still consider Puerto Rico, you
know belongs to Puerto Ricans.
[01:29:00] And what do you think that
that status, that relationship with the US will be going with in like the next
generations?
It's interesting because so many things, so many
dynamics are taking place right now. On the one hand, this is the time in which
nationalism has risen most because of the treatment that the U.S has given it,
as you know, mostly because of this debt, which is another story in and of
itself. That debt was not created by Puerto Ricans. These were the vulture
funds that would not have been allowed in the United States to do what they did
in Puerto Rico. But because Puerto Rico did not fall under those rules, they
were out there with a vengeance and it's obvious that they didn't care if the
country went bankrupt and they knew that the probability was the country was
going to go bankrupt because the way it was structured... the people who sold
all of this junk bonds and whatever else, got a commission one way or the
other. So if I sell you something, I get the commission and maybe it turns
into, into garbage two hours after I sell it to you, I still got my commission.
my commission doesn't go back. So I'm out there just to sell as much of this as
possible and understanding that that whole thing is going to collapse. And the
other reason, well many reasons for the debt is that the United States had set
up in the early 60s, they had set up this, what they call the 936 law, 936,
which allowed US corporations to move to Puerto Rico tax-free, right? So... And
they, in the Puerto Rican government, in order to create more incentive, would
build roads to their plants to their factories, whatever they built, build the
roads electricity bring in the electricity, all of this and there was
absolutely no no tax money that was made by the Puerto Rican government. The
idea was that because they're going to provide work for the locals, then... It
is that that that new working forces purchasing power that'll make the system
dynamic, make the economy more dynamic, and it worked for a while right? There
was there was some to get by that, but then the United States, because it can
do anything it wants, it just took it away. And so here Puerto Rico had built
these roads and you know, people had gotten all these cars and these houses and
whatever else, and then suddenly when when when that 936 is taken away, there's
nothing there. There's no incentive for the US corporations to stay, right? And
so they all just packed up and left and here you're left hanging in the wind.
And so governor's came one after the other and in order to... they did kind of
like what Reagan did, except Reagan got away with it. Under Reagan, The US was
essentially broke. And so what Reagan did was pull out the credit cards. You
know, like a father who loses his job and doesn't want the family to know that
he's unemployed and he keeps up the standard of living by using credit cards.
At some point you got this mountain of debt that you cannot pay and essentially
that's what happened in Puerto Rico. You got governor after governor borrowing
more and more to keep up the illusion of the standard of living. And it came
crashing down. So a lot of that debt was it, was illegal. It should not have
been allowed even even under US law, in this possession of the US, it would
have been illegal, but it was allowed. So now a lot of people are saying, you
know, that was a illegal debt in the first place and whoever, you know, took
it, is the one who should be responsible. Not the the, not the people. Not the,
not the country. And same thing with all of these other vulture funds and
whatever and the people who hold the, you know, the mortgages and the bonds and
whatever else... They don't want to lose any money whatsoever. And so it's what
has been called, they want to privatize the the profits and make public the
debts. So they want the Puerto Rican public to to pay them back a hundred
percent. They say ah, "a wait a minute? You don't understand capitalism.
Right capitalism is like a like a casino, right? And you have to be you have to
be willing to you have to be willing to lose because that's why you win best".
And so this didn't go. Well you have to be willing to take your losses, but
they don't want to take any losses and they're forcing the Puerto Rican people
to pay everything, and this was never an investment. It was a guarantee as far
as I see and so that's why Puerto Rico is closing down schools. It's doesn't
have to be able repair the grid, you know the electric grid. The roads, all of
these other kinds of things are in disrepair. The health services, hospitals,
are closing left and right. Medical doctors aren't being paid, so they're
leaving. And as a matter of fact, I understand that for the entire country now,
there are two pathologist dealing with dead bodies. Imagine if there were only
two Pathologists in Connecticut. It's about the same size and it has about the
same population. All right it is it is a real good comparison. And that's why
it's all backed up and you got these people that are rotting away in
refrigerators. And as ah... Sometimes the electricity goes, so they literally
are running away and legally, they can't just bury them until they do some
autopsy or whatever, all kinds of other things like that. So it is really a
horror. So because of that, I think a lot of people are waking up and realizing
that even though you call Puerto Rico a commonwealth, that it is nothing more
than a possession held by a colonial power, that will, you know, that they can
do whatever they please to. You know like if you, if you own a car, you can
beat the heck out of that car or you can throw it over a cliff. You can do
whatever you want with it. And that's what's happening with Puerto Rico. So a
lot of people are waking up to that, but at the same time what's happening is
that a lot of those people that are waking up to that are leaving, right? And
so the people being left behind of those that you know are aren't able to leave
for whatever reason. The elderly and the you know the poor. And so, what can
they do? On the other hand, even before the ah, these crises, the hurricanes
and so forth, the United States has for a long time been trying to replace the
population of Puerto Rico, because one of the reasons why Puerto Rico will not
be an incorporated territory like Hawaii or Alaska, that there were
incorporated territory because they were destined to be ah, states at some
point and you know, they were able to outnumber the population of Hawaii. That
wasn't very difficult, and in Alaska, you know native populations are spread
all over the place and they also outnumber them by whites from the from the
mainland. And ah...So they eventually, when they became culturally digestible
enough, they became states. In Puerto Rico, they have not been able to do that.
And Puerto Rico has gone through all kinds of things, from... All kinds of
experiments have been done in Puerto Rico, on women, sterilization without
their knowledge. A woman would come in for a toe ache and the doctor would take
care of her toe and then say Oh, by the way, why don't you take one of these or
in the meantime, he would tie her tubes, he says oh we need to look over here
and tie the tubes. And the woman had no consent and they didn't know that they
were, you know, they were being sterilized. Or they just cut the tubes because
that's permanent. If you tie the tubes somebody can figure out a way of untying
them, but if you just cut them, fallopian tubes. Ah ah... About a quarter of
all Puerto Rican women were sterilized that way, and then Puerto Rican women
were the first to try out, as guinea pigs without them knowing it, the birth
control pill. Right... before Pincus and Rock, two ah pharmaceuticals, came
into Puerto Rico. And you can read this in a book titled the Pill by Robert
Christner or something like that, and which it, you know, they say that they
chose Puerto Rico to do the experiment on women, because they wanted to know if
simple-minded women could... if this instructions were were easy enough that
even simple minded women could follow them, to take the pill. And they had no
idea what an adult human female, what dosage was appropriate. They knew what an
adult female mouse needed or a female rat, but they had no notion of what a
human being needed and so a lot of the initial doses, were incredibly high and
it sterilized the women and it did all kinds of other... created all kinds of
havoc for them. And, so, you know, the the same thing that was done with the
Tuskegee men that were injected with with syphilis was done in Puerto Rico as
well. There was this one notorious doctor who called Puerto Ricans the biggest
vermin on the face of the Earth, that the only thing good for them was to be
destroyed and I am doing my part, I have already killed 25 of them in my
laboratories with these experiments and that and nothing happened to this guy,
as a matter of fact, he then gets invited to participate in all kinds of
projects, and when he eventually died, he died in high regards. Right, and you
know that letter and all kinds of other evidence was was public knowledge. It
wasn't like this guy was flying under the radar. So Puerto Rico has been used
under those those kinds but then again a lot of the people who could stay
behind and be the pro-independence people are the ones who are leaving. Some
are staying behind. But going back to US trying to replace the Puerto Rican
population, because the only problem with Puerto Rico is too many Puerto
Ricans, I think that's one of the reasons why they also gave up the Philippines
even though they kept them as a neo colony like they did Cuba until 1959, when
Fidel Castro took over. But ah, one of the latest things was to start building
in the midst of all of this economic hardship. They started building
multi-million dollar condos to attract people from the United States.
Obviously, you're not going to be attracting, you know, a lot of Latinos and a
lot of blacks and other minorities, right, who don't have that kind of money.
And ah, they had to promise to reside in Puerto Rico and what that meant
was they had to be at least six months... ah six months out of the year in
Puerto Rico. They could come and go as of will and they would count in one form
or another. And then they made it easy for certain corporations to come in.
That's why a lot of people who have these, you know, internet firms and stuff.
they go down to Puerto Rico and get all kinds of tax exemptions and whatever
else by saying they reside there and, if they if they keep their computer
behind, they can go to Timbuktu and still claim, you know, to reside in Puerto
Rico. And so in that way they're replacing the population, because at the same
time that they're bringing anglos in, the Puerto Ricans are leaving in droves.
More than half a million have already left, and it's closing in on a million.
Actually. It's closing in on a million already, because before all of this, the
population of Puerto Rico had already reached over 4 million. And right now
what they're saying is for is 3.4. So even if that's true, that's at least 6/10
of a of a million plus the I think it was like four point two, so that's like
eight tenths of a million. That's a lot of people. And that 3.4 has been stuck
for a while and people are still leaving so they haven't changed that number. I
wouldn't be surprised if at least a million have left. And Puerto Rico has
mines, mine minerals and since the 1970s, they've been trying, the US has been
trying to exploit those mines. They happen to be in the center of the country.
And ah, what they were going to do in the 70s was exploit them with what is
known as open pit mining. In other words. You just blow the hell out of
everything, take the malobanium, take the copper, take whatever it is, and then
just leave everything devastated. You leave this huge cut, this huge of blister
down the middle of a beautiful island. And that was one of the few times in
which I saw Puerto Ricans getting together regardless of whatever political
tendency they had. whether they were pro-independence, pro-statehood,
pro-commonwealth, and they got together over the the minefields that were to be
exploited and they said over our dead bodies you're going to exploit these. And
the federal government pulled back and kind of cut Corporation American Metal
Climates who were the, two of the companies who were going to be doing that,
they pulled back. And I guess they just we're just waiting for people to forget
about it and people have forgotten about it. And now after the hurricanes, one
of the things that happened was that, you know, a lot of places in Puerto Rico
have gone more than a year without electricity and most of those places were in
the middle of the mountains. And yes, you could claim that it's difficult to
get cables up there and so forth, but yeah, you can do solar and you
know, Hawaii has mountains other places have mountains, West Virginia has
mountains, the Rockies have mountains, and they're able to get, you know, all
the electricity and maintain it and so forth. So, but the idea is that if the
people in the center of the country don't have electricity or running water
because if you don't have electricity, you don't have running water, right?
Because the pumps, you need the pumps to pump the water and that sort of thing,
they will leave and often times just abandon their land. And these corporations
can come in and take it over. So it's at this point. It's up in the air. It's
very dynamic and it could turn towards statehood- toward independence. A lot of
people now are saying, you know independence is not reality, so we must be
equal like everybody else, let's go to statehood. TThe United States isn't
going to get Puerto Rico state, right? As long as you got so many Puerto
Ricans. As a friend of mine who died, he was a political analyst in Puerto
Rico, probably the most respected and believed, he had like 85% public approval
rate. He used to say... Are you are you crazy, the United States is going to
give three and a half million mulatto, Spanish-speaking, poor, statehood?
That's three strikes. And in this country three strikes and you're out, right?
So what's going to happen? Well, I think you know, something's got to be done
in Puerto Rico itself to hold back, you know, the the trend of getting so many
non Puerto Ricans into the country because they'll just try to Hawaiianize it
or Alaskanize it or any of the other territories that the US came up. The only
one of those territories, you know, like, Texas and New Mexico and Arizona and
whatever that they took from Mexico. They took half of Mexico. The only one
that still is majority and I say that carefully, majority Latino is, New
Mexico. It's like 52, 53 percent people of Mexican descent, but they're no
longer Mexican, right, and they have blended in and that was kind of like the
way it was. So, all the other territories they outdid, outnumbered, the local
population in order to be one culturally digestible and then turned it into a
state. So as long as Puerto Rico has, you know, three and a half million or so
that's not going to happen. And as people start leaving and leaving. Yeah
little by little. Because in Hawaii, it is not the Hawaiians who are in
control. Some people claim to have some Hawaiian heritage right? There was a
movie made a couple years ago as a matter of fact and what's his name famous
actor, white actor, plays one of these families and he claims, but you look at
him and the only thing Hawaiian about him, the character in that, in that
story, is that you know they claim, you know, great great great grandparents,
which means that he has maybe one or two percent. Once you get to all these
great generations, the percentage keeps dropping and dropping and dropping.
[Due to the
recommended 90 min length of the interview and personal obligations of the
narrator for the rest of the day, it was decided that the interview would
be concluded following the previous dialogue.]
Jamie
Kelley
Dr. Carmen
Coury
HIS 480-
Oral History
March 17th,
2019
Carmen Castro- Puerto Rico
Me: So my
name is Jamie Kelley and I’m here interviewing Carmen Castro.
Carmen: Actually it’s Carmen D.
Castro, I have a middle name.
Me: What
is your middle name?
Carmen: Dolores.
Me:
(writing) Dolores. Okay! And it’s the 12th of March 2017 on a
Tuesday at 6:27 at night! Um, so we’ve gone over the contract and you agreed to
be stored at the Ethnic Heritage Center and online at the Digital New Haven
website.
Carmen: Yes I do.
Me:
Um, and we’re going to sign the form together here on recording. You’re going
to sign there (pointing) and I’m going to after.
Carmen: This one has another date
(pointing to Dr. Coury’s signature).
Me: Oh
yea, because she had to sign prior to- yea. Because it’s spring break and all.
*Carmen
signs*
Me: Okay,
and then I’m going to sign and we’ll be all ready to go!
*I sign*
Carmen: *intelligible* And whatever
here, just check that.
Carmen: Oh! You accidentally
checked I do not agree and also I do, and I do agree, so, which is it? *laughs*
Me: Oh!
Okay! Ooops! I guess that’s what white out is for, huh?
*fixes
mistake on sheet*
Me: Okay!
Here we go! Can you state your full name for me?
Carmen: Carmen Castro. Do you want
me to say it again?
Me: Nope!
You’re good! And when and where were you born?
Carmen: I was born in San Juan,
Puerto Rico in November 21st 1938.
Me: And
what was that like, when you were born? Ya know, the climate of- of San Juan,
do you know any stories about it?
Carmen: The climate in San Juan is
between 80 and 90 all the time, it’s a Carribean country. *stops, then laughs*
Me: Um-
Carmen: *still laughing a bit* Do
you mean if uh, like uh, people wise or whatever?
Me: Yea,
like what was it like there? Did your parents ever you anything-
Carmen: 1938 was the start of the
second World War so it was hardship anyways because it was a hardship there
too-
Me: Yea.
Carmen: As it was in the United
States so.
Me: So
right in the midst of World War II, then?
Carmen: Yea, and 1938 was Germany,
and then 45’ was Japan so, it was two wars and one after the other, so
actually, but uh- we were doing good, my family and my grandmother raised me!
On my grandmother’s side-
Me: And
your mother raised you by herself?
Carmen: No, my mother was not there
because when my mother gave birth, she was only 15 years old, 15 and a half, so
my family decided she was too young to raise a child so I was raised them. And
my my m- my aunt- which I always called mom she was a secretary with the
housing authority, the United States housing authority which is now known by
that, and we hard it good, we had it okay because she was paid by the United
States government, not by the government of the island. It was just almost
brand new, back then at the time, we had a governor who was appointed by the
United States. We had become in 1898
Me: A
commonwealth?
Carmen: Yea, part of the United
States. It was a trade with Spain, but the monies, ya know, they were small
countries, the trees, the island. They were not a lot of money. People were
making a dollar an hour.
Me: Not
great then?
Carmen: Well, if you figure it out,
a dollar an hour with 25 cents, they could get a pound of rice, a half a pound
of uh beans, 20 cents worth of peppers and onions and all of that, they could
make a meal!
Me: So you
could make a lot out of a dollar?
Carmen: Oh yes! A dollar would go a
far far way.
Me: Wish
it was that way now, huh?
Carmen: Yea, it could go real real
far. And it was a only a nickel to take the bus!
Me: Now
it’s like three bucks!
*both
laugh*
Carmen: And ya know, that was
different. Of course when the 1940s came, and we had war with Japan, rice
became scarce. And then, they had- I remember that clearly, because I would
only eat white rice, that was my meal. I wouldn’t eat anything else. I would
only eat white rice and eggs.
Me: So you
were a picky eater huh?
Carmen: Very much! And I remember
real good because all they had was that yellowish brown rice, and my mother (my
aunt) and my grandmother, ya know, that was what they had and what they ate, but
I wouldn’t, but my grandmother and my mother- or rather my aunt, she would go
to a certain place and get this one pound of white rice, cause that’s what I
would eat. And she would buy it just so that I could eat something. Eggs were
25 cents a piece and she would make sure that I would make sure that I ate an
egg once a day.
Me: So
they took care of you!
Carmen: She would take me to my
grandmothers so she could get the eggs.
Me: So you
got hooked up, huh?
Carmen: I no- well, yea, like you
say, they would make sure that I, ya know, they gave me the food that I wanted.
She had two two kids, boys, and they would eat anything.
Me: And
that was your aunt?
Carmen: Yea. She was divorced, and
she had two boys, two children, that were younger than me. To me, they were my
brothers, and I was raised with them, brothers and sisters, and that’s how I
was raised with them. Five years old I went to school, they put me in Catholic
school because they were Catholic but I was raised in the Catholic church. I’m
not Catholic, but I decided in my adult years, but I was raised in a Catholic
school.
Me: What
do you practice now?
Carmen: I’m Pentacostal. And um,
the, ya know, my aunt gave me everything for me. I was provided with
everything. I never missed out. I’ll be honest with you I didn’t miss out, I
didn’t miss my mother. My father, I knew I had one, he would visit me about
once a month, but I didn’t miss him, them, nothing like that. I never missed
the male figure in my family. No, I was raised by two women, and I think that
was good enough for me.
Me: And
your mom, worked a lot, huh? So, your aunt?
Carmen: No, my mother never worked,
she didn’t live with us. She was sent to another town, to live with another
family.
Me: Why
was that?
Carmen: Because they thought that
she was only fifteen years old she didn’t know how to raise a child, so they sent her away to live
with our aunts and cousins.
Me: And
did she visit you often?
Carmen: Oh, when she would come
down to visit with me, and she was always angry with me because I wouldn’t call
her mother. So we didn’t have a real good relationship. But I didn’t mind that
either because I didn’t miss anything.
Me:
Because of your aunt? She was your mom.
Carmen: My aunt, my grandmother, I
have a mother- to this day, to this age, I’m 80 years old, and I wonder,
because I never missed the male structure of the family, I was doing fine, I
went to school, I did everything like other children. My friends, where I
lived, they had fathers and I didn’t miss, you know, I lived fine.
Me: You
never felt like you needed a dad?
Carmen: These families were husband
and wife and I never missed that in my house.
*phone rings*
Carmen: Because the way my aunt raised me, she was a really independent type of woman. She was, her father died when she was very young, and she was raised in an orphanage, so she was raised to be working, she was a very independent working woman. So, ya know, she raised me like she was raised. My grandmother raised her children by herself, because her husband was killed years before. So, that’s how I was raised. Independent, I didn’t need a man, why did I need a man. I didn’t need a father, there was no space for it. I knew I had a father, I had met him, he was nice to me, on my father’s side I had met my uncles and grandmother and grandfather. Everything was fine, they loved me, every other week they would come pick me up. But it was like visiting friends.
Carmen: Because the way my aunt raised me, she was a really independent type of woman. She was, her father died when she was very young, and she was raised in an orphanage, so she was raised to be working, she was a very independent working woman. So, ya know, she raised me like she was raised. My grandmother raised her children by herself, because her husband was killed years before. So, that’s how I was raised. Independent, I didn’t need a man, why did I need a man. I didn’t need a father, there was no space for it. I knew I had a father, I had met him, he was nice to me, on my father’s side I had met my uncles and grandmother and grandfather. Everything was fine, they loved me, every other week they would come pick me up. But it was like visiting friends.
Me: It
wasn’t like they were your parents ever?
Carmen: Yea, no. I think if
anything I would miss, would be my grandfather. He was good to me. All they had
was boys, and they had had one girl but she had died by the time she was ten so
I was this girl that was born after all of these years of boys. And my
grandfather showed me that this was great, this was good. And I loved my
grandfather. Big man 6 foot 1, blond hair, blue eyes.
Me: Oh
wow.
Carmen: We’re a combination of
Spanish, Indian, Black, whatever else was hanged around there. Germans, Irish,
oh yes, we have Irish, Germans, very few Italian, but we do, and the rest is
Indian and Spanish. And that’s the combination of the Puerto Ricans. Right now
I am Spaniard, Indian, and Black.
Me: So
your mom was Puerto Rican?
Carmen: Yes.
Me: And
your dad?
Carmen: Yes, my mother is Puerto
Rican, and my father is Puerto Rican, and my father’s parents and mother’s
parents were all Puerto Rican, but my great grandmother on my mother’s side was
black, so that’s where that comes from. And, but she married white men. So
that’s why the black blood started thinning out, because she said in her
household nobody else could be black but her.
Me:
*laughs*
Carmen: She died when she was 125.
Me: She was
125?
Carmen: Yes ma’am.
Me: Did
she leave her secrets? *both laugh*
Carmen: If she did, I wouldn’t
know. I wasn’t really in tune with it, not until I was in my twenties, that’s
when I did. But she married nine times, and the last time she was 90 years old.
Me: She
married nine times?
Carmen: Yes.
Me: Wow.
Me: Wow.
Carmen: And the last time she was
ninety years old and it lasted until she died at 125.
Me: That’s
a good long marriage.
Carmen: She was a really hard
cookie.
Me: She
was a good lady though?
Carmen: I don’t know, I really
don’t- no, she was not. She was a very nasty person. People who knew her, and
all that, yea, she was not a nice person. But she lasted that long, ya know? I
didn’t get to meet her, because by the time I had had made it around she had
already died. My father’s side, his grandfather had *inaudible*
Me:
Gotcha. So tell me about yout town, San Juan, what do you remember about it.
Carmen: Oh! San Juan is the capital
of Puerto Rico. But I didn’t live in San Juan, San Juan is the capital of
Puerta de Tierra. Puerta is door, Tierra is land, because before you get to old
San Juan, you have to go through that. Puerta de Tierra is about
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8, if you count it in blocks it’d be about 8 blocks one way, 4
avenues, 7 or eight blocks, and then 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, going up four blocks up.
That’s how big it is.
Me: So
it’s small?
Carmen: It’s a-like I said, it’s a
piece! I wonder if I could show you. Get me my phone Mishele. And I was born,
actually I wasn’t born in a hospital, I was born in a house because my mother
went to the hospital and they told her to go back because she wasn’t due so she
went home and that’s when she gave birth.
Me: So
they sent her home and she was like can’t go back now?
Carmen: So, you know *we both
laughed* a whatchamacallit, *asking family about a word in Spanish* Oh! A
midwife, in Puerta Rico, there were a lot of midwives.
Me: So
your mom had a midwife take care of her?
Carmen: Yea and um, because they
had sent her back to the house and what can I say?
Me: You
just wanted to come out!
Carmen: It was my time!
Me: So,
what’s it like in San Juan, in your town?
Carmen: In my little, well we don’t
call it a town, I don’t know what you would call it because it’s not even a
town. *plays on phone* Let me show you where I was raised. And um, this is
where I was raised. *shows picture*
Me: Oh
wow!
Carmen: This is the first type of
housing that was ever envisioned. It was finished in 1937.
Me: So
right before you came along then?
Carmen: Yes, it is a, now it’s a,
whatcha call it, *asking family in Spanish what you’d call it*
Family member: It’s a historical
site.
Carmen: It’s that. It’s beautiful.
Me: Oh!
Nice!
Carmen: But it’s the first type of
thing. Because okay, because of the war, they asked the artchitects, because
the army was in Puerto Rico, and they asked the architects to develop a place
which was small enough, that could house- I mean the place was small but there
were 120 apartments there.
Me: Wow.
Carmen: They have a very nice
history in that.
Me: *to
her granddaughter I’m close with* Mishele maybe I’ll see it when we go to San
Juan.
Carmen: It’s there! It’ll be there
for quite a long time because when they built it, they built it, in blocks of
pure cement, and the walls are 12 inches thick. So whatever comes around, ain’t
nothing going to happen to that building.
Me: What
made it a historical site? Because it was the first?
Carmen: Well no, yea because it was
the first but also because after that, because even here, in the United States
they didn’t have anything like that, to house people, that’s how the housing
authority has come about, because that’s where they got the idea from. In a
small place, building up apartments where a whole lot of people could live. And
once they built that, because, like I said they asked the United States
architects to build that, and the first people that would live there would be
the say families of the army people. But this was the first place that was ever
built like that. After that, believe me, in Puerto Rico, every place you have
all kinds of, every block of these buildings to house people. And that’s why,
because we are a small island ya know. 100 miles by 37.
Me: So is
it crowded then?
Carmen: It’s 100 by 37. So there’s
almost, more than 50,000, 8 million people or something. We are very crowded,
we always have been crowded. First with the trees and then after we cut the
trees down we started building them, so this was the first one. That’s why it
became historical.
Me: Gotcha
Carmen: Because it was the first
time it was built, but it was built in such a way that even, it has balconies
right, the balconies are iron.
Me: Oh,
okay.
Carmen: And that means that 1937
and it’s still there and the building doesn’t move, trust me. And they’re all
three stories high, and they have letters A-R, and 12 apartments in each
letter, and then the top part, the roof, they used to have tubs to wash
clothes, and we’d hang clothes up to drive. The balconies are so big, you can
fit my sofa out there. And they were built in such a way that has lasted.
Before they had sand, now they have cement, and that’s where I grew up. I was
born in one building down the road then by the time I was 4 years old we were
there and my mother (aunt) she was working for, she was working as a secretary,
it was called The Puerto Rican Reconstruction Adminsitration.
Me: And that
was your mom?
Carmen: My aunt
Me: Okay,
I’m following.
Carmen: And she worked as a
secretary for the Puerto Rican Reconstruction Adminstration, it’s what is now
HUDD, or whatever they call it. That’s what it was, and she could get an
apartment there or a house. But it was the San Juan area but they were building
houses also and she said she didn’t like the houses because they looked like
matchboxes and that’s exactly what they looked like. But it’s still a very
flourishing place. And the name is Puerto Nuevo, and their houses there are
beautiful, people have, with their idea, making it this way and the other and
the iron thing that they do. They really make it ya know like the old Spaniard
way. From Spain. Because the influence of Spain is still there.
Me: Yea.
It’s very colorful.
Carmen: You go to San Juan and
everything is Spanish, the buildings, the way they *inaudible* because you have
to remember the Spaniards got there before in 1493 and San Juan was built at
that time. And it’s lasted that long. And we have cobblestones. They’re trying
to get rid of them and they can’t, people don’t want them to.
Me: Why do
they want to get rid of them?
Carmen: Dahh! You were heels they
get stuck in them in May, you know, but they can’t get rid of them, in some places
they’ve poured cement over them. But this is something that is like uh a
legacy.
Me: It’s
part of the history. It’s important.
Carmen: 600 years! And they were
imported from Spain and brought to Puerto Rico. And they’re still there,
they’ve lasted more than individuals. Ya know, ya know.
Me: Just
don’t wear heels!
Carmen: Ah! I used to wear heels!
Just see where you’re walking, that’s all you’ve gotta do.
*we both laughed*
Me: So
does your town have any uh landmarks other than your building?
Carmen: Oh, well actually, like I said, it’s not really a town, what would you call it *asking family* we don’t call it a town, it’s one two three avenues and a road, it’s not really a town, it’s a, part of San Juan-
Carmen: Oh, well actually, like I said, it’s not really a town, what would you call it *asking family* we don’t call it a town, it’s one two three avenues and a road, it’s not really a town, it’s a, part of San Juan-
Family member: A burro.
Carmen: A burro! It’s like a burro,
ya know, but a small one. And the island of course is small. And San Juan is
not really humongous but if you try to walk it all in one day you’ll be tired.
Me: I’m
going to try, believe me!
Carmen: You can try, a lot of
people do! But you be dead tired. Because one thing is, the hills, up and down,
ya know, you get tired *inaudible* But it’s good. It has, it has a lot of
quaint places with the Spainard influences.
Me: Like
what?
Carmen: Like the plaza, in San
Juan, we call it old San Juan. I mean there’s 1,2,3 I think it’s six plazas
there, ya know, they’re big, and there’s doves are there. Old stuff like that.
Now, it’s very modernized. You can find Wendy’s and McDonalds. *laughs* Plus
you can find the old bakeries, they’re still there. And you can find the forts,
there’s three forts. And then there’s the fort where the governors family
lives, and del Morro, which is, El Morro was used as a lookout for ships, and
San Cristobal was also used as a lookout. And, it’s a beautiful place. I like it.
I enjoy it. I grew up there. *inaudible* And we have ya know like, we have, we
have uh a Spainard house that’s actually completely done like the Moorish way
in Spain, that place. And then we have it’s like a little *inaudible* and the
library, which is very pretty. So we’ve incorporated everything from the old,
that was built with the island in San Juan, and when you get out of my little
burro and to the sides there’s a small fort and then there’s a hotels.
Me: Yea,
we’re staying at one.
Carmen: They make sure, they make sure those hotels are done modernized. They actually don’t compete with the history.
Carmen: They make sure, they make sure those hotels are done modernized. They actually don’t compete with the history.
Me: Yea.
Did Mishele tell you that the senior class is going to San Juan this year?
Carmen: No, no she didn’t say.
Me: I
planned the trip, we’re going to San Juan. We’re going May 18 through the 22nd
right before graduation.
Carmen: Oh! May is good, May is a
good time to go. It’s not too rainy but it’s good. If you go in August, you’ll
sweat it out. May is a good time because the temperature is functionating it’s
not a 100 and something. August is very humid. April, May, June, and July are
very nice to go during, that’s why it’s so expensive.
Me: Yea,
we got a good deal. $650 for four nights and five days.
Carmen: The reason they charge all
that is it because those are the nice days, the nice times. So which hotel are
you going to go to.
Me: We’re
staying at the Marriot, the Stellaris Marriot.
Carmen: Oh, that’s a very nice
hotel! Marriot is good!
Me: Yea,
it’s nice, right on the water!
Carmen: I’ve seen it! I know we’re
they’re all at, don’t worry. You’re the one who has to see it.
Me: I’m
excited!
Carmen: But it’s a nice place,
you’ll find. That whole area is very nice, and full of hotels because that’s
the edge. But on that road you can go on all these scenes, the little hotels
are all Spanish inspired, if, when you go to Puerto Rico, you’ll find that. In
uh *inaudible city* there’s a two um bridges that connect Old San Juan with New
San Juan. And New San Juan is very modernized.
Me: Very
industrialized.
Carmen: Not actually, they have
like apartments and buildings and all that, but it’s the new type of thing, ya
know.
Me: It’s
not the old history, it’s the new.
Carmen: Yea, so the old history is
back in Old San Juan, which is very interesting because they have this building
to me, and I’ve seen them all my life and I still like to see them and I still
go ya know, because it’s such a thing, 400, 500 years, and it’s still there.
It’s still going. I love that. Santurce, eh, it’s New York. I was raised in New
York so I don’t care. I don’t see anything different, ya know?
Me: Yea.
Carmen: And then the towns, when
you go into them, you’re going to be there for what, six days?
Me: Uh, 5
days 4 nights.
Carmen: 5 days. I think you might
be able to make it to another town. Ponce *two other inaudible towns* Those are
the towns that kept the Spainard way, Ponce is very famous for the firehouse,
this firehouse you’ve never seen in all your life. If you go, you’ll love it.
Me: It’s a firehouse? What’s so, so, cool about it?
Me: It’s a firehouse? What’s so, so, cool about it?
Carmen: Ohhhh, when you see it you
know. Okay?
Me: Oh
okayyy, so I’ll just have to go
Carmen: Yea! Well I don’t know if I
can get it in Google but uh, ya know, when you see it, it’s just like, it’s something
you’ve never seen any place.
Me:
Mind-blowing?
Carmen: Yea. It’s there. But *town*
but it’s nice in a way, but it’s more university. And there’s 78 towns and they
all have different appeals, okay, because they built it with what they knew
back in 1400.
Me: So
they all have a different feel to them.
Carmen: Oh yes, oh yes.
Me: So
what is San Juan’s feel?
Carmen: Now it’s getting to be more
modernized but they can’t do nothing with it, ya know the buildings are there,
you can’t touch that no, otherwise it’s very modern. You go there, you see
people, they all, we speak Spanish and we speak English, but you see, the
Puerto Rican individual is very shy. And I’ll be honest with you, they are very
shy.
Me: Really?
Me: Really?
Carmen: Oh yes.
Family member: We’re shy? Shy?
Carmen: But- they’re very shy when
they need someone because to them it’s like the white people but actually
they’re very socialized, they’re like me, they’re very socialized, they’ll talk
to you, but they don’t overboard, when you become friends, that’s a whole
different story. Ya know what I mean. But you will find, when you go there, you
will see it, the island, all of it was like that. But you go in there, on the
island, to the different towns, they’ll give you this and they’ll give you
that. That’s how they are.
Me: So a
very giving people, yea?
Carmen: This is the Indian in us.
You see, the background, the Indian in us, the Tainos, they are, were, very
very simple and humble Indians to the point where the Indians in Cuba and Santo
Domingo would go there because they were cannibals and they would go there to
eat them! Okay, that’s how we were.
Me: *laughs*
Ohmygod, cannibal food?
Carmen: That’s how they were! In
Cuba, and the Indians in Santo Domingo, the Dominican Republic, they would row
to Puerto Rico to kill the Indians in there because they were so you know
easy-going, not that they couldn’t fight, but they were not warriors, if they
had to fight they would, ok?
Me: Yea.
Carmen: But they weren’t looking
for fight, this is the Taino, they weren’t looking for it. So then they
wouldn’t see it coming.
Me: So
then they wouldn’t see it coming and they would snack on them?
Carmen: That’s- that’s- that’s part
of my blood, ya know? Eh, what can I say? And that’s my legacy to all of my
children! Ya know! What can I say! *laughs* It’s true though, this is a part of
our history, sometimes they don’t want to get into it because they don’t want
to get into it, I’m not ashamed of it, that’s what happened, but that’s how it
was, we’re talking 600 years ago ya know, so, what can I say? They couldn’t be
smart cookies! It wasn’t because they weren’t developed little things, that
they were smart enough to do that, but, they were very easy going. They
trusted. Ya know?
Me: Which
isn’t necessarily a bad thing
Carmen: Well, you know, they were
trusting individuals. My mother, my aunt, her name was Florinda, she died, she
used to say that we were suckers, Indians were suckers, what can I tell you?!
*laughs* and here, her mother, her mother, my grandmother on my mother’s side,
her mother was Indian. And her husband was a Spaniard, from the Canary Islands
and she was Indian, and I’m like Aunt would say that, and my grandmother would
say you know what, because my grandmother as a fighter, she was a fighter, that
was the white blood in her, she didn’t have any black blood in her, just white
and Indian, that was my mother’s side.
Me: Mhm
Carmen: So, yea. And then my
grandmother married my grandfather and that was the one who had the black
grandmother. And I tell you *inaudible* I have a-a niece, and they named her
TaÃna, and when they named her TaÃna, she says, she says, could they pick a
better name then a suckers name?
Me: Oh no!
Poor TaÃna!
Carmen: Ohhh yes. Eh, TaÃna likes her name so I don’t care. She likes it, she doesn’t know the history and she isn’t going to find out either. She’s been to Puerto Rico but, you see people of Puerto Rican descent or whatever, but they don’t go into the history of it, but when they do they feel kind of ashamed, I’m not ashamed of it. I’m happy that all this happened but it has, we have been able to, ya know, grow into different things. We have historians, scientists, all things.
Me: It all lead up to something.
Carmen: I’m good for that. We had writers, men who wrote poems and poetry, beautiful, wrote songs, and their background? Indian and black, Indian and white, so I’m very very proud of that, it doesn’t bother me at all. I’m happy what it is. So, yea.
Carmen: Ohhh yes. Eh, TaÃna likes her name so I don’t care. She likes it, she doesn’t know the history and she isn’t going to find out either. She’s been to Puerto Rico but, you see people of Puerto Rican descent or whatever, but they don’t go into the history of it, but when they do they feel kind of ashamed, I’m not ashamed of it. I’m happy that all this happened but it has, we have been able to, ya know, grow into different things. We have historians, scientists, all things.
Me: It all lead up to something.
Carmen: I’m good for that. We had writers, men who wrote poems and poetry, beautiful, wrote songs, and their background? Indian and black, Indian and white, so I’m very very proud of that, it doesn’t bother me at all. I’m happy what it is. So, yea.
Me: Good!
So, when did you come from Puerto Rico to the U.S.?
Carmen: I was 11 years old.
Me: 11?
Carmen: I had just graduated from six grade, oh because when I went to school I was only five years old.
Me: Yea?
Carmen: Because then they didn’t have this thing, headstart, or whatever, and my Aunt would teach me how to read and write and by the time I was five I knew all my letters, all my numbers and I knew how to read, so they put me in first grade.
Carmen: I was 11 years old.
Me: 11?
Carmen: I had just graduated from six grade, oh because when I went to school I was only five years old.
Me: Yea?
Carmen: Because then they didn’t have this thing, headstart, or whatever, and my Aunt would teach me how to read and write and by the time I was five I knew all my letters, all my numbers and I knew how to read, so they put me in first grade.
Me:
Really?
Carmen: Yes, so I went to school
when I was five years old, since my birthday is in November, I would have had
to wait another year but when they gave me this test,
Me: They
said you were ready?
Carmen: Yes, they said I was ready
so I graduated, when I was eleven years old I graduated the sixth grade. My
mother, my real mother, was here, she had remarried and she was here, and she
wanted me to be with her.
Me: So you
moved in with your mom then?
Carmen: Yes, that’s when I moved in
with her. I didn’t like it, New York at all, I thought New York was dirty, it
stank, everything, you know. But, I was here for a couple of years.
Me: So
just you came over?
Carmen: Yea.
Me: Not
like your aunt? She didn’t come over?
Carmen: No no- you don’t
understand, my mother-
Me: So you
came by yourself?
Carmen: Yea.
Me: At
eleven?
Carmen: Yea.
Me: Was it
scary?
Carmen: No, I liked the plane! It
was an eight-hour ride, and it was scary but I liked it. I was, back then, I
was very adventurous, it was an eight-hour ride from Puerto Rico to New York,
because back then the planes were only like four cylinders. But, I rode the
planes when they were eight hours, I rode the planes when they were six hours
and I rode the planes when they were three hours! I’ve done the whole thing!
Me: You’ve
seen the whole transition!
Carmen: And before that it was by
boat
Me: And
that would take forever!
Carmen: Like a whole week or
something.
Me: Nice.
Carmen: I wasn’t planning on that
happening, I came by plane. It wasn’t Kennedy yet, it was Newark, when you came
from Puerto Rico it went from Newark, that was the only airport, there was no
Kennedy airport. That’s where, you know. I remember that. And like I said, when
they picked me up and drove me the first ride that I came through was 125th
and 2nd avenue and I was like ohmygod this place stink I don’t like
it.
Me: *laughs*
Carmen: I ended up, my mother was
living at 82nd St.
Me: And
where is that? In New York?
Carmen: Yupp, New York, 82nd
St. and 7th and 8th avenue. I lived in the Italian
community for almost three years, and I went to school PS 49 ya know, and here
I am, eleven years old, graduated from the sixth grade, and they wanted to put
me in sixth grade again
Me: Why?
Carmen: Because they thought my
age, I was 11 years old. And here they would go by the age, and not the, so
they wanted to put me there. So they gave me a test, and when they gave me a
test, they put me in 8th grade!
Me: Wow!
Carmen: Ya know, I was really
educated at this Catholic school which they gave me things wayyy ahead of
everything, so when they gave me the test they put me in 8th grade!
*laughs*
Me: Nice!
So you always were just advanced, ahead of the game!
Carmen: I had to because I was, I
was raised like that, I was trained like that so, you know. And I remember
always that the teachers at that school, would go how can we have her in 8th
grade she’s only eleven, and the 8th graders you know, they’re 13
and 14 and here I am, tiny and short, and small, ya know, and just, ya know,
and you know how they try to take advantage of you? One tried, and that was the
end of his try. Oh yea, oh yea, and they tried to bully me on that. Never
happened, never happened because you see, they thought that I didn’t understand
English.
Me: Joke
was on them.
Carmen: Ya know, here is this
Puerto Rican and they tried this little monkey business, honey, that was the
end of it. Then everyone was my friend. Oh, I showed them. I was short, and I
spoke English, and that was the end of it.
Me: *coughs*
Carmen: Oh, I remember that, in PS
49, everyone was Italian or Jewish
Me: Yea,
so you were different.
Carmen: Oh yes, and that’s where I
met this boy Robert. As you can see, my rss, are like rrrrr, and this was way
back, even when I was growing up, and he loveddd to hear me call his name
Robert. He was Italian, he was from Rome, and he would be up my assssss. *both
of us laugh* And I was 11 years old and I wasn’t thinking like that and my
friend said to me, and there was nothing to me that was saying I’m going to
have a boyfriend or whatever, and I used to kid around with him and he would
say I’ll walk you home and I used to say What for I don’t need you.
Me: *laughs*
So did you date Robert?
Carmen: No! He would walk me home
from school and if I would go to the park he would be there, and I’ll always
remember Robert because, and to him, because he was always, Call my name, he
wanted me to call his name because he loved the way I called his name Robert,
and he was like, and to him this was like ohmygoodness you know? Ahhhh, cool
guy. Blonde guy with blue eyes.
Me: Silly
Robert!
Carmen: And then from there we
moved, we used to, first it was 48th, then we moved to 84th
street. And from there I went back to Puerto Rico again.
Me: Yea?
Carmen: And then I was there, for
Me: The
rest of your education?
Carmen: Almost, almost.
Me: How
long were you there for?
Carmen: Four more years. Let me
see, yea because then my mother got pregnant and then I came back again.
Me: And
how old were you then?
Carmen: I was sixteen.
Me: And
how was it, going back? After, ya know, two years?
Carmen: Well when I went back, ya
know, I was speaking English, I had this accent. And everybody was calling me
the AmericanÃta, which means The American. And it was funny because ya know I
grew up with them, and they were calling me that-
Me: And
now suddenly you came back all Americanized-
Carmen: And I had a different
haircut. And ya know, before I had long long hair and when I came back I had
short hair, oh I lovedddd my short hair and ya know, it was okay, I mean, we
got back together again ya know, then I went back because my mother got
pregnant and she needed someone to help out, I don’t know why but, that was not
a nice experience but, I was here for almost a year and then I went back to
Puerto Rico and I stayed.
Me: You
stayed there?
Carmen: And I stayed there, and I
stayed there till I was, let me see, in my twenties, maybe?
Me: And
then you came back again? So each time it was New York, Puerto Rico, New York,
Puerto Rico?
Carmen: Well, yea, I came back to
New York again but by then I was already in my twenties and
Me: So you
weren’t with your mom anymore?
Carmen: Oh no, no! I was working,
let me tell you, when I was in Puerto Rico, when I went back to Puerto Rico
Me: The
first time?
Carmen: The first time, I was 11,
and two years later I went back, I was working, paying social security at 13,
because I worked at a store, making 3 dollars a week!
Me: Three
dollars a week? In the U.S. or Puerto Rico?
Carmen: In Puerto Rico, I made 3
dollars a week.
Me: What
was the store?
Carmen: It was a clothing store, and
the woman who owned it knew my aunt and I knew how to sew and she wanted
someone to do the hems and my aunt said well send her over and I knew how to
sew because she had taught me and she had taught me how to use the machine and
by hand and I knew how to embroider and embroidery, so the woman was really
happy but then one day, I went into work, and I would go to school and go to
work, and then the woman says for me to clean this big window she had and she
wanted me to clean it and squeegee and all that and clean the front of the
store. And I went home and I told my aunt, and my aunt had business with her,
she would buy stuff from her, and my aunt went to that woman and that was the
end of their friendship. Because my aunt found it, you ask me to do a job and
she was here to do this and you want someone to clean your windows you get a
man to clean your windows, you don’t ask her.
Me: Yea?
Carmen: Nope, that’s not what we
do. Yea, my aunt had a, her mouth was not very nice. And she got rid of that
woman and they were never friends again. She never bought anything from her,
they were not friends again. But yea, I was making money at thirteen! I was paying
social security taxes. It’s funny because you know how your not supposed to
work at thirteen, yea?
Me: Yea.
Carmen: But in Puerto Rico it was
different, but I had forgotten about that so when I was in my thirties or
forties and I requested social security they did a background
Me: And
they were like oh you’ve been working!
Carmen: Yes! *laughs* and they
showed me where I had been working and taking social security from and I was
like oh I remember that I was thirteen, I had forgetten about that!
Me: Yea.
Carmen: But when I went back the
second time I worked, I went to school and then I worked. And graduated and
just working here and there
Me: So you
didn’t go to college, no?
Carmen: I, then after that, I took
one year, but then I was working very hard, because I was working 11 to 7 in
the morning and going to school at 9 in the morning. And then, the first year-
Me: What
were you doing 11 to 7?
Carmen: The first year, the first
year up at college was very hard for me because you had to take about thirty
credits in different things, not just one, different areas.
Me: Not
what you wanted to study?
Carmen: Because and then from there
you would pick what you wanted to be. Ya know, working there, it was eight
hours at night, it was very hard and I did it, I did it, but I was like sleepy
only getting two three hours a day, so then I just quit the whole thing.
Me: What
were you doing 11 to 7? You were working overnights?
Carmen: I was, I was working in a,
in uh-how do you call this- an answering service. They had the first answering
service in the island, this woman had developed it and she had this I was
looking for work and she said oh yea you’re good ya know so, I started working
for her.
Me: And
how long did you work for her?
Carmen: I worked for her for about
two years. But then I also got, I mean it can really do a number on you working
those hours
Me: Yea,
yea.
Carmen: Yea like the clock in your
body is pretty much wacko, so after two years I quit and then I was working,
and where did I go to work after that, it was with an office for the government
and I didn’t last very long because you see in Puerto Rico if you belong with
one party they give you could jobs if you belong to somebody else they give you
things, and because my aunt used to be a Repubican, and back then at that point
they were Democrats,
Me: So you
missed out, depending on what party was in power at the time?
Carmen: Yea yea, so I got the job
on my own ya know because I was bilingual and all that so I got the job but
they didn’t treat me real nice so I, then I started working at Walworth’s
Me: At
where?
Carmen: Walworth’s, it doesn’t
exist anymore but it was the 5 and 10 that was there, before anything else,
here in the states, Walworth’s was it. And back in Puerto Rico that’s where it
was. So I started working with them and I worked with them for about a year
also. So I kept on working little old jobs, whatever I felt comfortable with.
Because if I didn’t like it I’d just leave.
Me: Yea?
Carmen: Ohhh yea, it didn’t bother
me at all.
Me: You
were just like I’ll find something else?
Carmen: Ya, ya. And then I lived
with my aunt, my grandmother, I had a place to live, and that was okay with me.
And then my twenties, actually I was twenty one, I came back.
Me: To the
U.S.?
Carmen: Yes.
Me: With
your mom or on your own?
Carmen: On my own, on my own, yes.
Me: And
where did you live?
Carmen: I lived in the Bronx.
Me: How
was that?
Carmen: *scoffs and we both laugh*
The Bronx is the Bronx it hasn’t changed at all. I like the Bronx, I liked the
Bronx better than New York, it was when Alexander was on, which is no longer,
the L was running through, which I don’t think does any longer, ya know, all
that good stuff was there. That was there back then I don’t think is there now.
And I did go to school-
Me: To
college?
Carmen: No no, I did go to school,
I forgot to tell you before, I did go to school when I was here, when I was
sixteen and ya know I came, and I did go to school in the Bronx, to 163rd
school, there was a public school there and I went to school there from my 8th,
9th, 10th year there. That high school is still there.
163rd, it’s still there. And when I came back I got myself a job.
Me: Where
did you work?
Carmen: I worked with the, gee I
forgot his name, they don’t exist anymore, he was this Jewish, they were, the
owners were Jewish but it was this fashion place. And I loved to dress
everything, so I got myself a job there, but as a bookkeeper. I was always good
with numbers, and I studied that actually, and I got a job there as a
bookkeeper and it was good there because I got everything there at a lesser
price and I dressed really good and I had a job and I was there, and I was
there until I got together, hooked up with my ex, and got pregnant and it was
not nice because the owner’s son fell in love with me but I was already
pregnant, so I wasn’t going to go off and marry him, Harry! Harry loved me, and
Jewish people don’t like to mingle with any other, but Harry was adamant, he
wanted to marry me.
Me: So if
you didn’t get pregnant would you have been with Harry?
Carmen: I probably would have
married him!
Me: Yea?
Carmen: Because he was a good man
and his father was a good man and his father as willing to let it go at that ya
know, but then I, but I got hooked up with this guy and I got pregnant real
quick. *scoffs*
Me: And what
was his name?
Carmen: He’s my ex-husband, Carlos,
my children’s father. *blows a raspberry* But it’s not a history I want to go
into.
Me: So
that’s Ms. Mishele’s dad?
Carmen: Yes, yes. And uh, so I
didn’t marry Harry…*laughs sadly*
Me: Do you
regret not marrying Harry?
Carmen: Yea…I think I would have
had a good life with him. Harry was a good man. Ya know, but, I guess it wasn’t
meant to be because, I’m always saying, let me tell you, I had a child with
this man, and I had another one, I left that one back to Puerto Rico with one
child and I gave birth to the other one over there, seven years later I get
hooked up with him again, and I married him! Then I these three, my twins and
my youngest one.
Me: Mhm.
Carmen: And all for nothing because
this guy didn’t respect any of it!
Me: So,
how many children do you have?
Carmen: I have six altogether.
Me: With
Carlos?
Carmen: No, with Carlos only 5. But
between those seven years I met a guy and he was supposed to be the good guy
that was going to help me raise my two kids but he was also a bastard but I had
a kid by him and that’s the one that lives in Puerto Rico and has two children,
oh three children, 2 boys and one girl. So, you know, my life has been kind of
been a tic-tac-toe, but ya know, I’ve learned from it, I’ve learned, and I’ve
learned to live. Oh yes, because I lived, let me tell you, I’ve good. And all
these lessons, I’m very good.
Me: You go
through what you go through, right?
Carmen: It doesn’t put me down at
all, I worked here as a teacher, as a social worker, with the state, with the
city.
Me: You
taught?
Carmen: Yes, first to sixth grade.
Me: Where?
Carmen: Well, it was Prince at one
time, which no longer exists, After Prince, after that I quit after that and I
became, I worked as a social worker. Because I didn’t have all of my credits
completed but they needed bilingual teachers here,
Me: Yea?
So they let you teach?
Carmen: But the superintendent that
was here before knew that I didn’t have the credits but I had the knowledge and
the background to do that, so they hired me as a teacher.
Me: This
is New Haven?
Carmen: Yes, New Haven.
Me: When
did you come to New Haven?
Carmen: I came in New Haven, I been
here since 1969.
Me: How
old where you then?
Carmen: *misunderstanding* 80.
(she’s eighty now so she was 30) I been here for 50 years.
Me: Wow.
Carmen: I’ve seen New Haven grow,
I’ve seen it grow down and grow up. The hill, Yale is everybody’s business *we
both laugh*
Me: Yale
*rolls eyes*
Carmen: It’s in everybody’s
business! Before it wasn’t but it is, now it’s building buildings and its doing
this. This, this that I live here, this used to be part of the housing, they
used to have apartments here, they still have one part there, if you go that
side, housing.
Me:
Brookside? Yea.
Carmen: Yea, Brookside used to be
all about that way, when I used to, when I worked with the city, I had to visit
people, yea, as a social worker I had to visit them. And it was not nice,
because they were mean individuals, and the funny thing is they took them all
out, they rebuilt, and then they put them back in again. And they’re still
doing the same thing! *laughs* Some of them live here in this same building and
believe me they do the same thing! I don’t, I don’t socialize with any of them!
Me: Anyone
in your building?
Carmen: No, no, I stay hello and
that’s it. I say hello how are you doing, fine, thank you-
Me:
Because you remember how bad it was back then?
Carmen: Oh, I know them all.
They’re all the same baloney. And that’s all. And then when I came back, I, I,
lived in Meriden. I loveeeed Meriden.
Me: When
did you come back again?
Carmen: To New Haven?
Me: Mhm.
Carmen: In, when was *inaudible
family members name to other family member in room* born?
Family member: 92’.
Carmen: No, I came back in, when
was the, what’s the name uh, Janeé?
Family member: Janeé? 90’.
Carmen: Yea, then, it was 92’
because then he was born, and that’s when I came back again
Family member: And *inaudible* was
born there in the end of
Carmen: And then came back and I
started living in New Haven again, I lived in Ella Grasso in all different
places.
Me: Mhm?
Carmen: And even before that with
all my children, I lived in different streets in New Haven.
Me: Mhm.
Carmen: And I lived in church st
south when it was brand new, ya know. And uh, the, but in Meriden, I loved it,
I liked it there! And I worked there, the company is still there-
Me: What
was it?
Carmen: Um, what’s the name of that
company, *inaudible* they make auto parts? Ohmygod I was talking about them the
other day because they were very nice to me! Yea because I worked there for
five six years, ya know, and *inaudible* retired.
Me: You’ve
just done it all, huh?
Carmen: Yea, ya know, it isn’t that
I don’t remember, ya know, it’s just that I’m the type of person and I’ve
always been like this, you’re good to be, I’ll remember you always, something
happens? I won’t even remember what you look like, you go by me and I won’t
event see your face.
Me: Oh!
Carmen: I’m sorry! I shouldn’t be like
that, that’s not Christian, but this is the way that I am. You know, it’s
something that I block out, that individual and those things. Ya know, White
House, no, no, White House is the, it’s White Something, I don’t know, adios
mio! It’s white something it’s uh, and they make parts of Ford, not just any
Ford it’s for the trucks. And there, there, it’s one part that their engineers
did, this is uh, this is uh, with the, what you call it when they do something
for the first time and no one can repeat it.
*It was White Head, she later
texted me*
Family member: Patent?
Carmen: It’s patent! It’s patented,
and they did that, they did that for Ford, so they developed it, and they have
this fantastic factory in Meriden and uh, I liked Meriden, I liked Meriden. I
learned how to- I didn’t know how to drive and when I first, I went and I
learned, I went to a school and I got my license, honey, I was all over New
Haven and I got lost and I came out and I did one street and I got lost and I
learned you can take one street and you’ll come out, you’ll come out! Don’t be
scared!
Me: When
did you learn how to drive?
Carmen: *to family member* I was in
my forties, wasn’t it?
Family member:
Forties.
Carmen. Yea it was-
Family member: Thirties!
Carmen: No, it wasn’t forties, yea,
it was my thirties! 37, something like that. Oh, yea, ya know I mean I had my
children already and I just thought-and I did it just because my ex husband
said I could never learn ya know whatever and I told him that’s nice and that I
could. And I did.
Me: So you
did it to show him up?
Carmen: Oh I did it every time I
could.
Me: You
were a better driver than he was, huh?
Carmen: Believe me I got my license
like that! He had to do it two times before he could get it.
*we laugh*
Me: You
showed him!
Carmen: You bet your life honey!
All the time and some more!
*still both laughing*
Carmen: But uh, yea, ya know, this
is, actually is not a big life but that’s what it is.
Family member: *In Spanish
inaudible sentence* Junta?
Carmen: Oh no! Cause, she said-
Family member: And Crossroads?
Carmen: Well, because that, it
happened with my ex-husband, we developed Crossroads.
Me:
Crossroads? *To family member* I was going to get there!
Family member: Sorry!
Carmen: Crossroads, we developed
it. After I did, what I did was, what I did was-
Me: And
what’s Crossroads?
Carmen: Crossroads is a facility
for individuals who are drug addicts
Me: Yea-
Carmen: to help them get out of
that. Now I think they do it in another way but in the beginning that was the
purpose of that. Okay? They would get them in there, for a length of time, and
that would get you out of the drugs, they first, first they were using no other
drugs then they started using what they gave whatever. To start Crossroads, I
had to write a, I had to write uh, what you call it, help me out there, I had
to write uh *asks family member in Spanish*
Family member: They did a proposal.
Me: A
proposal?
Carmen: Yes, you see, I had to do
that. My ex husband and his other friend, they didn’t know shit from shit,
sorry excuse me, I don’t mean to, but that’s how it was so I had to do that.
Then I had to go and get myself involved with CT Mental Health.
Me: Mhm.
So you wrote the proposal for them?
Carmen: Mhm. They would give some
monies, but they wouldn’t give money to just anybody, they would give 5,000 and
what could you do with 5,000? So I made the proposal, I got into the business
with CT Mental Health and then I had to show them why they needed at least
30,000 to begin with.
Me: Yea?
Carmen: Okay? At least. And then, they
didn’t like the name Crossroads because the thing we- the name came about, if
you know Crossroads, it’s like a cross. And the people that were there, my ex
husband and his friend and the others, they were Christian, and they wanted
something Christian to help these, because that’s how they were help. They were
drug addicts themselves, my ex husband and his friend and the other, they were
ex addicts. And they came out of it through Christianity. But, Mental Health
said no, we cannot get involved with anything that has to do with that. So, in
order to keep the name, you don’t know the things I had to go through in order
to keep that name.
Me: Yea,
because they affiliated it with religion.
Carmen: And I really really had to
work with it, and they finally gave it to them, it was like 30,000, no 50,000,
something like that, and they gave them a facility, which was the second floor
of the Y.
Me: Wow.
Carmen: And yea, and then they
started developing from there and I was part of their group for a little while
but by then the rift between by ex-husband and me were getting longer and
longer and longer so I just quit, I didn’t last. I also worked for, I was a supervisor
for Junta.
Me: Yea?
Carmen: And that was okay, prior to
that I was working with the city of New Haven and it was a program called CETA,
C-E-T-A, it doesn’t exist anymore, but the purpose of that program was to get
people who had no, no background, I mean, they quit school at eighth grade, ya
know, they don’t know what to do with their lives, train them to be something.
And then, we had this program, we had this program where we would get monies
and we would pay the employer half of that salary so that they would train
them.
Me: Nice!
Carmen: For six months, we would do
that, we would get the individual, bring him to you, and I’ll give you half of
his salary. And that was my job, I was a job developer with the city of New
Haven and I was there five years or something and then I got tired of that one
and that’s when they wanted me to work with uh, Junta.
Me:
And what is Junta?
Carmen: Junta is the Spanish, what
do you call it in uh-
Me: *to
family member* Mishele, help me out here.
Other family member: Junta is a
service program that was developd to help those
Carmen: The Spanish speaking
community!
Family member: -that came here, to
help them navigate.
Carmen: Yea, yea the Spanish
community was helped by Junta, take them to places, they don’t understand
English so you would take them to places and translate. I was, I was, I was
there for a whole year, a supervisor.
Me: And
did you like working at Junta?
Carmen: No.
Me: Oh?
Carmen: And so I got out of there
and I got myself another job, with *laughs* I went back to the city of New
Haven working as a social worker ha. That was how we worked. And then after
that I moved to Meriden because I got this job okay, in between that, in 1977,
98’? 1980 something? Four? 82, 83? 85? 85. I fell, I, I fell I mean, I wasn’t
doing anything I had sneakers on, I was getting my bag from the trunk of my car
and there was this black ice and I just slipped and to me I fell, to me I fell
just right on this knee and I wasn’t heavy at all, I was under 130 pounds back
then but I fell, and I got up, left my car because my car was going to be
fixed, left my car and went back home. Went back home, took a bath, fed the
kids, and went to bed. The next day, I couldn’t get up, I couldn’t move my arms
or my legs.
Me: Oh no!
What was wrong?
Carmen: Exactly that! What?! All I
did was fall and you know, so they had to picked me up, they took me to Yale, I
had an MRI, and I had two herniated discs and one calcified in between. They
said when did you fall you went all this time, these doctors, why did you wait
all this time and I said I didn’t wait all this time this happened yesterday!
And these interns and all these doctors said how can it be possible you did
this yesterday that’s not possible and I said don’t ask me I dunno!
*we both laugh*
Carmen: So then they did 3 MRIs in
ONE day. And they gave three different doctors and they all couldn’t figure it
out. They’re asking me how I can figure it out, if they can’t figure it out how
can I?!
Me: *snorts*
Carmen: I mean jeez, ya know. So
then I quit working, I was out of work for about a year and a half, the day I
couldn’t stand it anymore and I went back to work and that’s when I got a job
with uh, Indians and Hindus.
Me: Doing
what.
Carmen: Secretarial work. I took
uh, six months with uh, Stone and I learned computers and all this, I graduated
third in my class and I went to work uh, and I got a job right out of there I
got a job with these people. And uh, oh I was working here in Hamden on, on
dixwell and it was good you know, I liked that.
Me: Yea?
Carmen: And he moved. He moved to a
place in Wallingford so then I would be driving to Wallingford all the time. I
worked with him for four almost five years. But while I was there he used to
fix all these computers and I was just doing secretarial work but he liked me,
they liked me, his wife and the kids and himself. Ya know it was a family owned
thing and one time this guy comes in and uh, he likes my job he likes the way
I’m working the way I’m coordinating this and that and he said how much are you
getting paid and I said, why don’t you ask, why don’t you ask Bracash (? Unsure
of spelling) and he said no no I’m asking you and I said I’m making I don’t
know it was like nine dollars an hour back then, 9 dollars. And he said, I’ll
give you twelve if you come work with me and I said you crazy I’m good here, ya
know I liked my job and everything and I liked the people, we got along really
nice. He went to my boss and he told him, and my boss, you know how Hindus are,
you go were the money is, and he comes up to me and says Ms Carmen you have to
take that job, he’s giving you more money! *pauses* And I said, you really want
me out? And he said no but he’s offering me more money he’s offering you more
things I cannot give to you ya know, because it was true, he could only give me
vacation, he could not give me a whole lot of stuff. So I said, okay that’s the
way it is, and I went to work with him. This job was, this company, I don’t
think people use checks anymore so I don’t know if it still exists, they used
to do the uh, the banks, you would send the checks there and we would compile
and send the records to them and I used to work there as a secretary too.
Me: Mhm.
Carmen: And then there comes this
woman and she’s picking up her checks and that’s the one I went to work with in
Meriden, that’s White House? Yea White House.
Family member: It’s not White House
MamÃ.
Carmen: Yes it is! And, she comes
and she says I like the way you work and she wanted me to go with her!
Me: So
then you went with her?
Carmen: Yea! She offered me a dollar more so I said
okay.
Me: Nice.
Carmen: But then it was hardship
also because it was commuting from New Haven to Meriden and when it snows it’s
really you know-
Me: Yea.
Carmen: So eventually I moved out
to Meriden to be closer to the job.
Me: And
now you’re back in New Haven!
Carmen: I came back to New Haven in
2009.
Family member: Why?
Carmen: I came back, I came back
for a birthday.
Me: Yea?
Carmen: You know I was living in Puerto
Rico for ten years because after I lived in Meriden I moved out to Puerto Rico
when I retired. I moved out to Puerto Rico and lived there for ten years. Then
in 2009 I came for a birthday and I haven’t been back.
Me:
*laughs* You just came back and never left?
Carmen: I haven’t even, I haven’t
even-
Family member: Who’s birthday was
it?
Me: Who’s
birthday was it?
Carmen: *point to her
granddaughter* This ones.
Me:
Mishele’s?
Carmen: Mishele’s birthday!
Family member: But what was it?
Carmen: The point was, I was
supposed to go back, but then this one and the other one oh you should stay
here, we’re here I don’t know what for because their visits are ya know but
it’s okay! I’m a loner, I live by myself, I was trained to live like that, I
was trained to live like that since I was a kid. I used to, I used to play,
when I was a little girl, by myself. And there were a lot of little girls, and
I would play by myself. I had dolls, I had everything, I would play by myself,
easy! And I didn’t need anyone next to me. Easy. So that’s no issue. But that’s
how I ended up in here again.
Family member: It was for my
quinceañera.
Me: It was
for your quinceañera Mishele?
Family member: *jokingly* Oh she
doesn’t want to mention that.
Carmen: I told you I came for your
birthday.
Me:
So it was an important party?
Carmen: I know, and it’s been a
long party now! 2009, this is 19’, ten years later I’m here, she’s still
celebrating I guess.
Me: Ten
year party!
Carmen: Yea, anything more you want
baby?
Me: Um, I
have a couple more questions.
Carmen: Sure, go ahead.
Me: How do
you feel about the fact that Puerto Rico is only a territory? Do you think it
should be a state?
Carmen: A long time ago.
Me: A long
time ago?
Carmen: Yes. Yes, we deserve it
because the island has been used-
Me: And
abused!
Carmen: -the island has been used
for a whole lot of things for the benefit, and I’m not saying-I’m in American-
for the benefit of the American nation. The army, the navy, for all those
purposes-
Me: For
sugar cane, this and that-
Carmen: And I think that it’s high
time to give something that. Because we didn’t ask to be part of this. Ya know?
When the Spanish-American war, and the American won, Spain gave, they didn’t
have any monies anymore, so in order to pay back, they gave the island to uh
United States.
Me: Yea.
Carmen: So we didn’t ask for that,
we didn’t ask for that. So they think oh they think that oh they made us a uh
commonlaw, wealth, oh! It’s is like living with a husband you don’t get married
and when he dies you don’t get shit! Ya know? And that’s how it is! Ya know?
And let me tell you it doesn’t work like that! It shouldn’t! Because we’ve
done, we’ve done we’ve done and we’ve done.
And everything oh they’ve given money hey, you have kids, you better support
those kids, no?
Me: Yea.
Carmen: So the island is your child
and you have to support that, you can’t be saying oh no no now you have to do
your own support.
Me: I
agree.
Carmen: *continuing* But then you,
you have to report to me! Hey, that doesn’t work like that. And like this! This
red-heaed cuokadoo, he’s uh, he has this uh ideas of what Puerto Rico should be
ya know and one time he actually said Puerto Rico should be turned into a
Jurassic Park!
Me: I
know…
Carmen: I mean he’s so stupid!
Me: He is
very stupid.
Carmen: He IS stupid. If he went to
school he didn’t get anything to his head.
Me: I
know, you wouldn’t believe he went to an Ivy.
Carmen: HE WHAT?
Me: An
Ivy.
Carmen: Yea, he went in there and
came out, anybody can do that. I can go to Harvard, I can go to any place in
and out and I went, but that doesn’t mean I got any education.
Me:
*laughing* Yea.
Carmen: Heyyy, I can go to MIT. In
and out and visit in it in and out.
Me: Okay!
I think that’s a good place to stop. Well thank you for letting me interview
you.
Carmen: Any time! And you’re
welcome!
*End Recording*
1:20:13.80.
Life
History Interview with Emmanuel Almonte Sanchez: Working-Food-Community-Opportunity-Family-Connection
March
16th, 2019
Interviewed
by Jordan Levin
At
the J&J Deli and Grocery
607
East Street, New Haven, Connecticut
480:
Oral History Seminar
Emmanuel Almonte Sanchez (Manuel)
Date of Birth: 12-19-1982
Place of Birth: Porto Plata, Dominican Republic
Year of Immigration to the United States: 1-29-2003
[Emmanuel Almonte Sanchez will be signified as “M”]
[Jordan Levin will be signified as “J”]
M: How we gonna start?
J: So, the first thing is…This is just a simple form,
it explains a lot of the stuff that we already went over. So, the purpose of
the research is to collect stories from New Haven’s Caribbean born community.
And description of participation, basically we are sitting down here, we talk,
and I’m recording the interview. What will happen is, I will take this
recording, the interview, and transcribe it onto paper and then, the recording
itself, that’ll be destroyed. And what we’ll have is just the pages of our back
and forth talking.
M: Ok.
J: And then the last thing it explains is that in New
Haven there is a place call the Ethnic Heritage Center, and that’s where it
will be held. And it will also be held at the Digital New Haven website, which
is like an archive, a historical archive, that is on the internet. So, both of
them will be used for research. So, if you’re ok with having your name and info
in there…
M: Yes…
J: The check off this top one…
M: Like that?
J: Yea.
M: So if you want to be….Yea no problem…
J: And then I just need your signature, and write your
name next to that.
M: Like that?
J: Awesome.
M: Ok, so now, the second beginning.
[Both laughing]
J: So, I’m, So I’m sitting down here today, my name is
Jordan Levin and I will be the interviewer, um, sitting down talking with
Emmanuel Almonte Sanchez, but you go by Manny right? Or Manuel!
M: Manuel.
J: Ok.
M: Si.
J: And we are sitting down inside his business which
is J&J Deli and Grocery, which is at the end of East Street, at the cross
section of East Street and State Street in New Haven, CT.
M: Yea, that’s correct.
J: And it’s March 16th (2019) at about four
in the afternoon, three-thirty, four in the afternoon…
M: It is 3:53.
J: 3:53 in the afternoon. So, I just want to start off
by saying I really appreciate you taking the time, and it’s a privilege to be
able to sit down and talk with you.
M: You’re very welcome brother, no problem.
J: So, I’m always curious, I work right across the
street, what’s J&J, deli, J&J Deli…where’d you get the name?
M: Well, I got the name from my friend. He had one
deli with the same name open before, and then you see, we wanted to keep it,
you know you see like McDonalds, Burger King…
J: Yea.
M: We keep it like that, we keep strength. Well, we
lived together. In the same house, he lived on the second floor. I lived on the
first floor.
So,
he made one store like J&J Deli and Grocery on Chapel Street, close to Yale
Hospital, the business was good, he sell it to another person, and then he
opened another J&J Deli in Bridgeport, and then he made another J&J
Restaurant on Grand Avenue. So, he wants to keep it going up, you know what I
mean?
J: Yea, yea.
M: So, then we bought this, and I have this J&J on
East Street. Now, he got another one, but no more J&J, this is the last
one.
Jordan: This is it?
M: Yea. The other one he got now, is like a Pueblo
Supermarket, it’s in Bridgeport.
So, this is how the name
starts. Because, going up, when he makes business, he shows you how the
business builds up faster. We are friendly with the people, you know, like,
good customer service.
J: Right.
M: That’s what we try to do.
J: So, you see the name and you know it gonna be a
good place.
M: Yup, we try to keep it like that. We keep it from
first day…going up. You know, we try to keep making this a better business.
J: So, was this a guy that you moved in with when you
first moved to…was that in New Haven?
M: Yea.
J: Gotcha.
M: Yea, we lived in New Haven. He’s like my
girlfriend’s cousin.
J: Did you know him from the Dominican Republic?
M: No, I know him from here. Around, nine years. We
talk together, going out together. You know like the weekend, we go into
Danbury, for dancing, you know like that. Like, my group.
J: Gotcha.
So,
when you first came to the United States, did you first move to New Haven?
M: No, when I come from Dominican Republic, that was
January 29th, 2003. My first time, when I come was New York City,
Manhattan. My location was 69 East 4th Street. That was my aunt’s
house. She was living there a long time, around twenty years. I lived with her
around like eight years.
J: So that’s in Manhattan?
M: Manhattan, yea.
J: 69 East 4th Street? Gotcha.
M: Yea, it’s like, it’s close to Second Avenue, and
the Bowery.
J: You lived down in Manhattan for eight years?
M: Eleven. Yea, but I lived with her eight years.
J: Gotcha. What did you do when you first moved here,
like work-wise, ah…
M: I work all day [laughing] around, around the night
time. My first job in the United States was grocery, in in Brooklyn, the name
was Three Brothers grocery in Brooklyn. It was on Maple Street and Nostrand.
Yea, that was my first job. I was there for two months. And then my father got
the opportunity to buy a bakery route. It’s like a stop, like restaurant,
grocery, deli’s, he got like eighty stops…we started with eighty. But, we get
the opportunity, somebody from Italian bakery, gave the money to him to buy the
route, can I say that?
J: A route, yea, yea.
M: We worked that for ten years.
J: Delivery, bakery delivery.
M: Ten years I worked that, in the night time.
J: All through the night, right?
M: Yea, like, we start… I wake up, for example I wake
up at night, go into work at ten p.m., all night, make eighty stops,
restaurants, delis, pizzeria, schools, we get, he had like three schools on the
route, but the route, we had to get the bread to New Jersey, Patterson, New
Jersey. Yes, we had to take the New Jersey turnpike to get there. We worked until
eleven in the morning. Ten to Eleven.
J: Oy.
M: Yea, around ten years, six days out of the week.
J: Six days a week… So that was you and your father in
the truck?
M: And my brother, one brother came with me the same
day from the Dominican Republic.
J: Gotcha. So, you both traveled on the same day from
the Dominican Republic?
M: Yea, I traveled with my brother.
J: Can you tell me about that experience? Actually,
what brought you to make that decision to travel to New York?
M: To New York…Well, my father, he was living here in
New York City for more years, say fifteen years, and then was working in the
bakery, the same bakery, inside, ah, all the time, for like fifteen years, the
same company. So, he made the document, he paid the immigration for the green
card for us, so that’s why, he brought us to the United States. He brought all,
we are five together.
J: Sibling.
M: So, I have one brother younger, he’s in the
Dominican Republic now. My sister she lives in New York City, but she lives in
Port Chester right now, she bought a house. And then, it’s me, I live in New
Haven. My other brother, he lives in New York City, on the lower east side.
Lower east side is a big community from like Latin, like Puerto Rican and
Dominican mixed together, that’s what they call lower east side.
J: The lower east side…
M: Yea, yea, yea, it’s around Tenth Street and Avenue
D.
J: Do you ever go down and visit?
M: Sometimes yea, yea.
J: But, you’re hear like most every day.
M: Yea.
[Laughing together about this]
M: Yea every day. Like in December, like that, we go
to visit.
Now,
my father, ah, his wife. She was having another baby, a girl, so my father take
has another daughter now, and she lives in New York City too with my other
brother.
J: So, going back, to before New York. Where in the
Dominican Republic did you grow up?
M: I grew up in a small city, the name is Porto Plata city.
It’s in the North. It’s very fun, that city. Yea, for tourists. The commercial
in the city is for tourists. People from everywhere. Europe, United States,
France.
J: Did you live inside the city, or just outside?
M: Inside.
J: What did your house look like?
M: My house looked like a small house, like wooden
house. The color when I was born, ah, the house has the same color. It’s blue
and white. They renew it overtime, but it’s still the same color. It is a
corner house. It’s very small, but all my family grew up in this house. They
are small they grow up and they leave, you know, like that.
J: So, your father grew up in this house?
M: No, another house. My mother. They was not
together.
J: Oh, ok.
M: Yea, my father has, for example, the first two, my
sister and brother younger they are from one women, and then goes me, just for
my mother, and then the other two, is from another lady, and my little brother
is around twenty-one. Right now, we are all in a different place.
J: Growing up there, what did you do? Did you have a
lot of friends in the neighborhood?
M: In the Dominican Republic?
J: Yea.
M: Yea, I had a lot of friends.
J: What kind of stuff did you do?
M: Over there? Um, I was in the school full time.
Tried to get a better life, you know. The I started to work in a cafeteria, it’s
like a ‘coffee shop’ in the United States. When I finished my school, I would
work like eight to four o’clock, like a regular job.
[Customer comes in and Manuel serves him]
M: So, I was working like that, like six days a week.
The coffee shop was close to my house. I took care like I was the manager. When
she was (presumably the owner), she was there like five o’clock in the morning
to open it. I get there at eight, and when I get there she left.
J: So, you’d run the whole shop?
M: Yea.
J: How old were you when you started doing that?
M: Around sixteen.
J: So, how did you do that, and school?
M: I didn’t start to work like that until I finished
my high school.
J: Oh, ok. Which is at eighteen?
M: Sixteen.
J: Oh, ok.
M: Well, I started to work like that at sixteen, but
two more years I finished my high school. So, at that age I went in the afternoon
when I go out from the school.
J: So, you get out of school then you go in and go to
work.
M: Yea, that’s where I started to learn how to work.
J: Right.
M: I know it late’s but…[laughing] it did it like
that. I start to work because my father, always he took care of me, from here
to the Dominican Republic. So, we did like me working when I was studying.
J: He wanted you to be in school?
M: Yea, in school all the time. Yea.
J: Did you like school?
M: Oh yea. The, the problem, I’m not in school right
now because when I started to work like nighttime, when I get to the school
here, that was, um, Columbia University. I’m getting to the University to get
my GED, because my diploma from the Dominican Republic is not working here. We
have to translate, for example. But, I started to make my GED here with
Columbia University…
J: In, that’s in New York?
M: New York, yea. So, the problem was, I was, I have
to work all that time, because we have to pay all that money for the bread, for
the rolls, so, when I go out from my work, I gotta go to take a shower, then
take a train to 121st uptown.
J: For Columbia?
M: Yea. That was a long ways. So, when I get to the
school I was asleep. So, when I get there, I would never be right, never on
focus. Like all the time I want to sleep. That’s why I think about it, to leave
the school like that. We had the responsibility to pay my fathers friends, the
Italians, the one who gave it to him.
J: Right. So, when you were growing up your father was
already in the United States. Did you know as a child, someday I’m going to
move to the United States too?
M: Yea, he always told me about it. At first he
brought my sister and my brother. But, my brother, he never went back to
school, he didn’t want go. You know, he wanted to stay in the outside, the
street, with the…like having fun all the time…do bad things…that’s why my
father, he don’t bring me to the United States quickly. Like, I bring those
two, let’s see what’s going on, and then I’ll bring the other ones. So, my
father saw my young brother, he don’t want to go to school, he don’t want to
work, he wants to stand there every day on the street with friends, do bad
things. That’s why he stopped with me in the Dominican Republic.
J: He said…Manuel, wait a little bit.
M: Yea…we have to see…but my sister. She went to the
school every time, she’s got a good job in New York City, but he think about
it, then he made the, the personal papers for us.
J: So, lets talk about your sister. Did she do the GED
at Columbia?
M: No, she was in the high school here. When she came,
she was four years old.
J: Four?
M: Yea.
J: Oh really, oh ok.
M: Yea and my brother was five or six.
J: Oh, oh, ok. So, essentially, they grew up here.
M: Yea, they went to the school when they were
younger, but my brother did not want to go back to school. That was the
problem.
J: Ok, ok.
M: Yea, when I came here, I was twenty-one.
J: 2003.
M: 2003.
J: So, back home, you were at the Cafeteria working,
finishing high school and you’re working there, did you work other places? Or,
have other work experience?
M: In Dominican Republic?
J: Yea.
M: Yea. I was working in a gift shop. It’s a little
place with everything inside for the people visiting our country. I was there
around one year. Cleaning.
J: What kind of stuff did you sell there?
M: Over there, cigars, Cohiba, like, jewelry, larimar,
gold, silver, paintings from my country. T-shirts. I was working for one lady.
I was cleaning the store, then she saw how I work and I began to sell.
J: Where was the store?
M: It’s in my city. I don’t know if it’s there right
now, but, that was there in the mercado, you know the mercado?
J: No, what is that?
M: Mercado is like a market. They sell fruit,
vegetables, like all the stuff, and gifts for the people that come. People from
the other countries want to see how the country is going, like how they live.
J: When you were down there did you travel? Did you
go, were you close to, like in the north is Santiago, a big city, was there a
reason to go to bigger cities like this? Or, did you stay in your city?
M: I stayed in my city. Yea, I was playing baseball. I
pitched. Playing with my friends. It’s not like a team but, in the
neighborhood, we call it the barrio.
J: In the barrio.
M: In the barrio yea, like neighborhood. Yea we played
baseball, raced bicycles, like motocross, but bicy-cross, like that…
[laughing together]
J: Like you make jumps and everything?
M: Yea, crazy stuff.
J: Your school, did they have a baseball team?
M: In the school, yea but, I never played, because
when I tried to play somebody hit my belly with the, I pitch, and the guy
quickly hit it…
J: Hit it…
M: Yea!
But,
I played basketball.
J: Gotcha. A little better than getting hit with the
baseball.
[laughing together]
M: Yea, that was hard.
J: In the house, who did you live with? In the house,
your mother’s house, right?
M: My aunt, my cousin, and my sister from my mother.
J: Does your mother still live in this house now?
M: No, I brought her here.
J: Oh, is that right?
M: Yea.
J: Is she in New Haven?
M: Yea, she is in New Haven. She lives in my house
now.
J: Does ah, your family still live in the house? The
same house?
M: Right now, in the Dominican Republic?
J: Yea.
M: Yea, my aunt and my cousin.
J: So, you were in New York. What brought you to
Connecticut, New Haven?
M: Well, I was working that time too many hours, and I
was like, that’s enough.
J: U’huh. Eleven years.
M: Yea, that was, that was too much. So I came here
like, can I say, day off…
J: Yea, uh’huh.
M: My day off was Saturday, like Friday in the
afternoon, because every Friday in the morning I collect the money from every
place. So, I finish like two o’clock and then, that was my night off. Start to
work Sunday night at ten. So, I’m with my girlfriend and she, her family was
living here. Yea, her aunt, her cousin, who we made the business together.
Then, another aunt. Like five family from here. So, we came to visit here. We
went to the park, I see how the city is, it was very quiet. That’s what I like.
I like this city…a lot!
J: Right.
M: If I have to move, I don’t go no where, I stay
here. So, I saw the city, went to the beach. The city has beautiful beach.
J: Where’d you go, what beach?
M: Ah, Ocean Beach and Rocky Neck.
J: Yea, Ocean Beach, that’s where I grew up, New
London.
M: New London yea [laughing], that’s my favorite
beach. We went in the summer every time, every Saturday.
J: You’ve gotta leave early for that. [Laughing]
M: Yea, but right now we are not going on Saturday, we
go on Sunday.
J: Because you’re closed Sunday here right?
M: Closed Sunday yea. We go at like seven o’clock.
J: Yea, you gotta, because man you get stuck in
traffic…
M: For hours…but when I came for visits, I still like
it, still like it, then ‘why we don’t move to Connecticut?’ Ah, I talked to my
father, finish, I gotta move, he get another person to work for my side, and
then I moved to my girlfriend’s aunts for three weeks I think, yea three weeks.
Then we get a big apartment. Like three floors. I was living in the basement
for six months. And my girlfriend’s aunt she as working at your place [The
Pantry Restaurant, across the street from J&J Deli and Grocery, at 2
Mechanic Street, New Haven. Jordan’s place of work] for a long time.
J: Oh, ok. That’s what Lenny [Leonard Fritz, owner,
chef and manager of The Pantry Restaurant] told me, ah…
M: Yea, Reyna. And then, she and my girlfriend, we
tried to get a house. She get the credit to get the house, if she didn’t get
it, then I would get it. Then we get it, and the city helped her.
J: Ah…well, keep going, then we can go back, but I’m
curious about how that process works.
M: Then we stayed with her, the same house for five
years on the first floor. She’s still living there, in the same house.
She
was the chef, like what Eric, Eric does [Eric Epps, current lead cook of The
Pantry Restaurant].
J: The cook, a cook.
M: She was the cook there.
J: So, she purchased the house. You said the city
helped, how did that happen?
M: Like ah, city program to get a house. They help you
I think, like if you have good credit you get like $50,000 and the bank, they
give $10,000 I think. Went she bought the house, that is what the program was.
She, because of her good credit, help from the city, New Haven, and the bank,
she got the house.
J: So, you were living on the first floor there, where
was the house?
M: The house is on 504 Dixwell Ave, New Haven,
Connecticut.
And
then, I was working at the cheese factory.
J: On, ah, State Street.
M: Yea, Elm City Cheese, for five year.
J: I was always curious, what do they do there?
[laughing together]
M: Ah, when I came here from New York I didn’t get a
job already. I came here like, I’m going!
J: No job, nothing!
M: No job, nothing!
[laughing together]
M: I had my one little car, I get the car for $2000.
Because before, in New York City I was on the train every time.
J: Right.
M: And then I get a car, and I need to get a job. Get
a job. So, I worked for one day here in New Haven, the first, when I came, was
in a liquor store. The liquor store is on Clinton Avenue. The owner is Roberto.
J: Ok.
M: Yea. So, when I finished my job…from the cheese
factory they called me. Oh, you got a job. You gotta be here. You gotta be here
at six o’clock in the morning. Ok, let’s go!
Ah,
that was me and another friend I met in this place. Because, this grocery store
was my girlfriend’s cousin, owned this before. The name was Gloria Grocery. I
met the guy over here, we were friends, and then let’s go we can get a job over
there. We made the application and then they called me the next day. That’s why
I worked just one day in the liquor store. So, I starting working, making boxes
in the cheese factory.
J: Making what?
M: Like a case…
J: Oh, oh…
M: To put the cheese inside, because they grate it.
They grate the cheese. All the work…um, can I explain it?
J: Yea, absolutely.
M: Like for example, they dry the cheese. They make it
first, and then they dry the cheese, like hard, like rock. [knocks his hand
onto the counter by the register].
J: What’s the name of this, the cheese, the kind of
cheese?
M: Um, they do, the real cheese from the milk. They
get the milk, they do the process. The next day they cut it and put in a huge
tank. From salt and water. They mix it with cheese from other companies. Like
tropical cheese, mozzarella cheese, all the cheese they put in different tanks.
They have like seven tanks, huge.
J: Huge.
M: They do like natural cheese, organic. They mix
together, then grate it, but every cheese in a separate tank. Different kind,
different tank. They grate it when it’s hard together.
J: How do they dry it out?
M: Heat it.
J: Ahhh…it takes a long time?
M: Long time, like a week. We have to renew from the
basket. Like the bottom has to be on top. We have to move the baskets, the
baskets we have to turn, and then turn. They put it in two rooms. The first
room is warm, its for all the liquids from the tanks, going out, going down.
And then they put it in another room. It’s smaller and hotter, for more drying,
and then they grate it in the machine.
But,
when I went, I was working in every place. So, I would load the truck when the
truck would come for the cheese. They come from another place, like Wisconsin,
New Jersey. Then the owners were looking at me, like how I work, then she gave
me the opportunity to get the milk in the plant.
J: Ok.
M: Like five o’clock in the morning to get the truck.
A truck can come from New Jersey, the next truck can come from Wisconsin,
different place. Like Guida, Lebanon, coming from New Jersey and the other
company Garelli.
J: So, what would you do, the truck comes…
M: Yea, the truck comes, but first I open the place
with the boss. I connect the hose with the plant, with a [indistinct word] open
at the top, for the air, because if you don’t open…squish!...on the truck…
J: Not good.
M: Yea. And then, when I get the milk I heat it up, by
myself I heat it up with…
[A brief pause while Manuel serves a customer]
M: So, when you fill the tank, it’s like two tanks to
make real cheese with milk. I would work with my boss, Chris.
J: Chris.
M: We heat it up with a pipe, with steam, to 95, more
than that sometimes. To heat the milk, separate the milk and the water, in the
process we use chemic [sic], different chemic to make the cheese. I was doing
that for eight months.
J: So, you were at the cheese factory for eight
months?
M: No, I was at work there for five years, but I was
going up at the job…
[Manuel stops to serve a customer]
So, the big boss was Al.
J: He was the owner?
M: No, the owners were Chris and Maggie. But, the big
boss is Al. Yea.
J: So, how long were you there? You may have told me
already…
M: Five years. But, I made the process for the milk,
he teach me and I made the process for eight months.
J: Gotcha.
M: It’s really good cheese when you put it on pizza,
it’s parmesan, that what it is, like grated.
J: They sell that around here? Or, where do they sell
it?
M: You know, a lot of trucks from different companies.
Like Italian companies, through like Shop Rite, Aldi, all with their name.
Because, we pack the cheese for fifty-five pounds, every case. So, they will
buy pallets, a lot of pallets, like ten, twelve.
J: They take it, and they put their name on it…
M: They take it and put it in different packages. So,
like, a lot of cheese goes to Wisconsin. They send the milk from there. And the
parmesan goes back. A lot of trucks. I was loading to the trucks. They was
paying me good.
J: No? [misunderstanding on the interviewers part]
M: No, they did pay me good. Yea, they are good people.
J: So, your friend worked there too?
M: We got the job together, but he left around two
weeks, this guy.
But,
my friend, we are talking about the deli. He told me he wants to open a
restaurant. He told me he wants me working with him in the restaurant. So, that
why I left the factory. Then I go to the restaurant. Then he tells me, you
gotta buy your store, I’m going to help you.
J: Now…this is the J&J friend?
M: Yea.
J: So, you were in the restaurant with him working?
M: I was, around one year.
J: Where is that?
M: The restaurant is on Grand Avenue. I can’t remember
the number, but its on Grand Avenue. J&J Restaurant on Grand Avenue.
J: What did you do there?
M: I deal with the customer, customer service, and I
close the place. For like one year. Like a manager position. Or, the people say
that, but…I just took care of the people and close the place. I don’t think
about it like that—like I’m the boss or the manager. I was friends with the
other person working with me, we are a team. It was not like ‘I’m the boss, and
you gotta listen to what I say.’
J: You guys were working together.
M: Yea, like if someone orders mofungo, you know
mofungo?
J: Yea.
M: Like three mofongo, it’s like hey come on make me
three monfungo, like that, not like you order them to do it. I was like
personal, like friends.
J: Now how many years were you there, one year you
said?
M: Yes.
J: And then this [The Deli] came after that?
M: Yes.
J: How did that process work?
M: The process?
J: Of, you say, ok, I’m going to open a business.
M: I was working over there, and over here, like the
mornings over here, when my friend bought it.
[Manuel stops to serve a customer]
M: So, it was like that. I was working the mornings
over here, then going over there.
J: Uh huh. And it was still Gloria’s Deli at that
time?
M: Yea. Before. Then the guy sold the store to the
owner of the liquor store where I was working. Yea, he bought the store, he was
in here, I don’t remember how long. Then my girlfriend’s cousin talked with
him, when he bought the restaurant…’I want this place,’ and the guy said, ‘yea,
why not.’
J: Right.
M: ‘I can sell it to you.’ So, it happened like that.
J: So, then you and you girlfriend took this place
together. So, right now we are working for pay. To pay her cousin, pay the
bills…
J: Right.
M: We are only working for pay right now. No money in
the pocket.
J: How many years have you been here now?
M: Right now, I have like a year and a half. That was
when 2017 was finished.
J: I remember Lenny across the street telling me, when
he opened 35 years ago or something, him and his brother ran it, for three
years they never payed themselves nothing…
M: No, it’s like that…
J: Then after three years it…
M: Yea, he gets more customer, yea, I think all the
business is like that. If you have the chance to make a business. Like, if you
have $20 extra, don’t take it for you, buy something else for the store. Like,
that is how you can build up, you know.
[Manuel stops to help a customer. Yet another customer
that he knows, and they are friendly together, clearly a routine rapport]
M: So, where were we?
J: Well, the way you just, you invest in the business.
M: Yea, all the business is like that.
J: Right.
M: You take longer to get something for your pocket.
Because, when you start a business you gotta pay more tax to the city. If you
have a machine to collect money from the people [gestures to the card reader
next to his register], you gotta pay, now like last month, I pay like $400 just
for the machine. So, I pay like that, the taxes, pay electricity, internet…
J: All this stuff…
M: All this stuff. Then you have to pay the person who
started you here. Like in my case. Like you know, I got the money from another
person. I gotta pay that person, it’s like that. So, we keep it doing.
J: It’s doing good! I think we eat the food about half
the week man!
M: Yea, a lot of friends, get a place, and they do it
the same way. They are working for pay.
J: So, it sounds like it’s kind of a small world
around here. Like, you know a lot of the same people doing the same stuff.
M: M’hum.
J: These are all Dominican people too?
M: Yea, I know.
Right
now, we have a group, can I say that? It’s like a team. Different persons who
have businesses, we meet with them. Like on the weekend. Right now, we are
going to do by the month.
J: Once a month?
M: Once a month. But we go, and we share some drinks,
talk. We were doing the weekend, like one day a week, we went to talk, about
like what we can do, like that, like a meeting.
J: What do you mean, what you can do?
M: For example, it’s like a team, and all teams have
meetings. And so, we talk about the team. But, not the business. Because, all the people
have like grocery stores, managers at supermarkets, like C-Town, I know all the
people, meet all the people. I know, my friend from the liquor store where I
was working…
J: Roberto.
M: I know that guy, different, more people who have a
store. We are gonna do, one day, right now, a month. But before it was like,
one Saturday, they come to my house, we have fun, like dancing, drink some
beer, it’s like that.
J: Is there a name for the group?
M: Yea, it’s like a um, social club… ‘entre amigo.’
J: Entre amigo.
M: Entre amigo. It’s like a Friends, friendly, social
club.
J: Gotcha.
M: Yea, that’s the name of it.
J: Wonderful. Then, ah, how did this get started?
M: Some friends meet together, like you and me for
example, we say, can you come to my house, like that, and then, yea, yea I can
go…so, then next time, the next week, I say to you the same way. Then I have
other friends, they say to you, oh, he’s my friend, and we are here if you need
something—I’ll help you out. It’s like that.
J: So, all the friends are Dominican?
M: Yea, Dominican right now. Or, Puerto Rico,
girlfriends, it’s like that. It’s all a good thing.
J: Yea, it’s important, like, for resources, right?
You say, hey, you know somebody that can help you with something you don’t know
about.
M: Yea like, oh I got a problem with something, and
you know it’s like friends, real friends, like that.
J: So, it’s a positive connection.
M: Yea, like a connection. For example, if I have
something broken in my kitchen, oh, for example, Roberto, do you know the guy,
for the…
J: The repair guy…
M: Yea. And he’ll say, I’ll send him to you right now,
and he calls him and he comes. Yea, we share a lot of the time. This thing, it
started like six months ago. But, we met first, then we tried, we said why do
we make that. Why don’t we share, like a group, like a team.
J: Yea, yea. So, it’s just starting.
M: Yea, like a team. Before it was just like friends.
J: Now with that, are there records and things like
that that you guys keep, or is it just social?
M: Like…?
J: Like documents, like you have a meeting and you
say, ‘ok, today we are going to discuss.’
M: Yea well like that, we are always talking on
WhatsApp. Before we weren’t paying for a membership, like when you are member
for one team. Like, ah, Sam’s Club, or something like that. So now we pay that
and somebody takes care of that money. We have money from that. So, for
example, it’s your birthday next Friday…um, let me take before…he got a place
by C-Town on Kimberly, they get an apartment that was empty. And, we meet
there, in there. So, the place is by C-Town, and you are our friends. Your
birthday is coming next week, you don’t have to rent a place. You can go to
that place, bring your family, then we, the other friends, bring some beer,
some food, and then we share all of that, together with your family. That day
is for you. You can invite us, but, if you don’t want that, you can say it’s
private, a private party for your family, and that day is for you. We put it on
the schedule. Like ‘I need March 23rd, the place, for a private
party.’ And, that day is for you.
J: So now…go ahead…
M: So, that’s why we pay for it.
J: And, you have this space now?
M: Right now, we gave it back. Because we are going to
do like a month, and not a week, like before. Because, every week we were going
there, and we gotta share with our family too. So, it is too busy. All week we
are working and then, oh, Saturday we gotta meet. So, that why we think about
it like a month.
J: And that’s all friends in New Haven, or New Haven
area?
M: Yea, New Haven area. Everybody is Dominican. They
are working in liquor stores, grocery stores, they own liquor stores, they own
grocery stores, supermarket manager.
J: Now, are there any connections, like you grew up in
the same town in the Dominican Republic?
M: No, no. The other people are from Santiago.
J: Everybody?
M: Almost everybody. Because, my girlfriend, she is
from Santiago. Her family is from Santiago too.
J: One thing I was curious about, is your feeling of
connection. Where do you feel connected? Dominican Republic of course, but do
you feel connected to the United States and New Haven also? Like for your
history, the way you define yourself…
M: Right now, I have a long time, I did not go back to
the Dominican Republic. My last time was five years ago. I was there when I
lost my father. That was the last time I was there.
J: Did he move back home?
M: No, he was here when he died. Then to rest, he was
taken to the Dominican Republic. Our whole family went there to put him in the…
[Manuel pauses to take a customer]
M: So, my friend, it was a long time ago, five years
ago. That was the last time I was there.
J: That was when your father passed away.
M: Yea, he passed away, yea.
J: So, this is where you want to stay?
M: Over here?
J: Yea.
M: Yea!
[laughing together]
M: I think now, this is my city.
J: Yea, well, everybody that comes in knows you man.
M: Yea, I made myself, like a citizen from here, two
years ago.
J: So, you and Dexis [Manuel’s girlfriend] started a
family here right?
M: Yea.
J: And your two daughters are Stacey and Stephanie.
M: Yea.
J: How old are your daughters?
M: My oldest daughter is five, and the other one is
four. She’s going to school now. The older, she is going to the Amistad
Academy. I’m going to try for my other daughter to get into the same school.
J: Gotcha. Is that a good school?
M: Yea, I like it very much. How they work. It’s an
academy, like military, can I say that?
J: Yea, yup.
M: Because they have to be in the same shoes, the
uniform has to be right. The teacher will call me all the time, about how she
is doing, she’ll send me pictures too, like when she steps up the grade.
J: Gotcha, the teacher will send the picture.
M: The teacher yea. We have a good connection with
her, she is good, good teacher.
J: So next year Stephanie can go to the same school?
M: Next year, same school, same teacher. My older
daughter, she’ll pass and go on to the next level.
J: And they are bilingual? They know Spanish and
English?
M: Yea, she knows Spanish, but she don’t want to talk.
You say ‘dame algo’ like bring me something or ‘queres comer’ you want
something to eat? She knows what you mean. But, for example if she knows you
she’ll talk Spanish with you, but she don’t want to talk it with me…
J: Why?
M: I don’t know!
[laughing together]
M: I don’t understand, I don’t speak English very
well.
J: I think you do…
M: Can I say that because, ah, like sometimes I’ll
confuse things, like in different situations.
J: How did you learn English? When you moved here, did
you know any English from the Dominican Republic?
M: Yea before, but the
English there is not the same. It’s like, sometimes it depends on how the
student is, because, like when you come here, the verb ‘to be’, for example,
sometimes they don’t say you can use it in the way that people say it. It’s
different. So that is why some Dominican people coming here can get confused.
Because they don’t translate how it is. How can I say, they don’t explain to
you how it is.
J: How it really is.
M: Yea. They need to
learn more I think. They are not…right.
J: Like there is a
difference between how it is in a book and how you are actually talking.
M: Like people who speak
English, they can get confused when we talk. Because it’s different, we have
the different accent from the Dominican Republic. Sometimes you don’t know…like
what? What? What did he say?
J: Right [laughing]
M: Yea, in my case, that
happens. I learned more of what I know on the street, because I had to speak
with the same people. Sometimes they don’t understand me, but I tried to speak
the same words. Because, one word, depending on how you talk, that sounds, means,
something different, and then the other person is confused. You know, that’s
the problem.
J: So, where do you live
now in New Haven?
M: In New Haven my
address is 88 Thompson Street, with me and my girlfriend’s cousin, he was
living in a rental for a long time, but I tried to tell him, he is a good guy,
why don’t you get your house? So, with that, I give him the idea. Do it, why
not, because you pay the rent, same you pay for your house, for your mortgage.
You can get a good house.
I don’t get a house because sometimes I am
short, with my credit card, and that, and so my credit scores are not too high
to get me all the money for the house, I’m working on it. I started two years
ago, but the lady told me you gotta keep it going…
J: You’ve got some time,
to put in time…
M: Yea, I’m working on
it. To get my house.
J: So, I’m pretty much
done here, is there anything you want to say that I didn’t touch on?
M: Well there’s a lot we
are missing…but I think we are good.
J: I think it’s pretty
amazing what you’ve done here.
M: We are doing great.
Something I can say is New Haven is a good city to live in. Now the city is
going up faster. Before, five years ago, less people, now…
J: A lot of new
apartments, new buildings…
M: New buildings, new
schools, it’s a good thing.
J: Dig it.
M: A lot of people are
friendly. Not rushed like New York. It’s very different. I love the city a lot.
J: Well, Manuel, I
appreciate you taking the time to talk.
M: You’re very welcome,
if you have any questions you can call me or come, if you see something you
don’t understand, you know what I mean.
J: Yea.
[Tape ends. Jordan and
Manuel continue to chat, then a new business owner of a new Puerto Rican
restaurant, Latin Roots, located on State Street, comes in the store to buy
snack foods. Manuel introduces her to Jordan]
Speaking in Bold is
the interviewer: Emma Norden
Speaking
in plain font is the interviewee: Iris Blanca
Now recording on the
phone drive your consort to… Do I have your consent to record this conversation?
Yes.
Do we have your
consent to digitize this in the New Haven Heritage Center as well as addition
he website? Yes.
What is your full
name? Blanca Iris A.
Where are you born? Yabucoa,
Puerto Rico
What year? April 23, 1953
Who are your parents? My, you want names? Sure. My mother’s name was Paula and my father's
name was ______
My mother was homemaker and my
father worked for the water company. And can you tell me anymore about them?
Well… Like how did they meet? I
don't know… they separated when I was five.
Gotcha.
So, do you have any siblings? Yes, I have two brothers and two
sisters.
Were you close with him when you
were younger? Uhh, not really cause we… We were
separated so they probably with your
father, or? No, actually we were separated,
and we were put up with all the relatives…
OK so do you have… did you have a
lot of extended family around you in Puerto Rico? I
did and some cousins and grandparents… (Laugh) And were you very close with them? I
grew up with that my ahh mother's parent’s grandparents, my maternal
grandparents…
So, you saw a lot of your family? Uh. I
was young cause I came here when I was 10 so I lost track of them while I was
there… and I mean that was in the in the 50s early ‘60s so you had no way of,
um, communicating with them… ahh. Yeah.
(Dog barking)
What was your home like? (Dog scuffling) I mean for…. the
times… it was good, but I was young, so, you know, you appreciate what you had for
your age. It is a lot different than… here Yeah.
You know, so, I grew up with my
grandmother, well actually, yes and with my brother, younger brother. And it, we… It was ok, we were poor, and I was it was… good, with
the little bit I can remember but that's all you knew… So you have it you have
it and you appreciate it until I moved here and I kind of… (Shrug)
Sure, so, what was your favorite
thing to do with a child in Puerto Rico? In what? Puerto
Rico, what was your favorite thing to do? (Laughs) Climb trees? that's all
you had… Yeah. …They were behind on the technology and back then they didn't
even have phones. Yeah. So, our favorites
thing was to go to outside and climb trees and play with….used to play with
boys because I had my brother…. We used to make our own fun… nature was fun… Yeah. …Go swimming in the river…. Try to catch fish
without… it what you call? Uhh a fish
line? It was fun…
OK so we're gonna move onto
questions more about America. So why did
your mother… who choose to bring you to the states? My
mother. Your mother, yeah. My mother remarried… I don't know whatever I
guess my step-father and we came here to Guilford in 1963. Ok. So, she brought four of us… My older brother,
no my younger brother stays with my father at that time he was living with my
father. So, we all came here, and we used
to live on uhh, Whitfield Street, one of
the oldest so umm…. (Laughs)
Did you know any English when you
came to the states?
I mean, I did, just, just basic, like down there, you have to in first grade. Yeah.
Uhh, well even if it's your basic “my name is”… so you don't know
conversational, you know enough to say who you are and where you live and... to get around? Smalltalk. Yeah, yeah,
yeah…
How old were you when you came over
you said you're done ten?
Yes. What do you remember about coming
over? Well what do I not remember! (Laughs)
I was like shocked! Like I said, I'm talking the ‘60s where you didn't even
have running water and then then you come here and…. and it's like you just can/t
get all over the fact that…. My biggest experience or whatever you wanna call
it was like the lights on the highway… Oh
really? Like, when you're driving,
and you have the lights, and everything was so bright so it's like it's like a
whole different world, but I say… as
time went by it… it was a whole different world because you get exposed things
that, you know, if you have a conversation with, with your parents you know… there…
the way they explain things and versus what you see is like… (sigh) It was good… I did a lot of things at my age
here that I'm sure I wouldn’t have had a chance to do there. Experiences? I got my first bike I got it when I was maybe ten
and a half, and I went out and roam all of Guilford on my little bike versus
there… You can’t afford to have a bike! You know what I’m saying so… I did things like
that… that, that you think about it and say… you discuss things with your
relatives that are there. Mhm.
Like that's with you, both this (America) are there and it was just
like two worlds, what they talk about versus what you know… is like…
Yeah. That I missed out, that I missed that life…
but it was good… it was good, uhh, it was a good experience.
Do you think you had any kind of a
culture shock? I
can’t I don't know if at ten, you can, you know it’s a culture shock… if you
know enough to. But I, I guess you adjust to whatever is in front of you, but I
don’t know if at ten, I don't know if I can you can. You know it's better, yeah, you know is it
something that you probably would never happen, but I did… I didn’t adjust to
the school cause when I went to the school there was nobody there… there was
one person there that… that spoke
Spanish (Laughs) and I remember going to... I think it was third grade…. I can’t
remember very well, and I get to school this guy that speaks Spanish, he just
doesn’t say a word. Mhm. So that to me was not
shocking but bothersome because now I'm in this huge building and I'm small…
and, um, I always remembered because I didn’t know how to get back home on the
bus. Yeah. So, I walked. I knew enough because since I came here it
was July so it's summer and have walked around enough to know and I did a dry
run, so I walked home. And that was the
only thing that really stands out. That was something that at the moment… I'm
scared… But once I adjusted, I was fine. (Laughs)
What do you remember most about the
process of coming over?
Probably
the airplane but I… um... I was excited… The fact that I was gonna come and
live with my mom rather than with my grandmother. Mhm. But the whole process was… Well the little bit
I remember, well I remember I came here, me and my sister and we were dressed
the same and we both carried baby dolls that we… we held onto them for years
for some reason. I don’t know if it was
the connection. Yeah. I remember being thirteen and fourteen and
hanging onto… It was one of those baby dolls that only the eyes would blink. Oh yeah, like the eyes would move. And they had no hair it was all pasted…
So, I guess that was the connection to, to the change. Yeah. You know what I’m
saying? In your own mind, you even think
that at ten that is a better life but, you know. I remember we were dressed; we were dressed
in blue jumpers that my aunt who was a seamstress… Oh. …made for us. And… that’s another thing that my mother hang
onto those forever… but that part I remember cause I had never been on a plane.
And back then I think the ride was longer, like the process of coming, now I
thing its three and a half back then I think it was longer. But that process, I remember that, I remember that, getting
that dolls… I don’t remember what happened to it in the end, I think I out grew
it… (Laughs)
So um, you didn’t migrate with your
father, who came with you?
No,
my father didn’t come with me. Yeah, but who did? Umm, who came with all of us? Yeah. It was all of us, it was my two sisters,
my older brother, and myself. My middle
one (brother) stayed with my Father. So, is your mother already over here? Yea she was already established here
with my step-father. Umm, and the
process, that way, was hard because being separating at five we were put with
different relatives. Yeah.
So, as siblings, we didn't know each other because the process was, lets
see, I’m talking, I five when they separated us and that so that's five years…
Five years that we lost… That’s a long time. Exactly, and I think we were like the ranges
five years difference the oldest to me… So, the whole process of being together
in the same house that was hard because you… you live in with strangers being
that we were all like… they were teenagers my sister, my sister was fifteen, I
don’t remember… but anyways that was… that was that processes. So it's different country, different
environment with strangers… Even though there are your blood, but you adjust, that
was a hard time because not for me like I said I was the youngest one so… I
could care less what they were doing.
Ahh, it was a time where like my sister got married at 16. Oh, wow. My oldest one I think she was the 17 or
something, she eloped with her husband, so, and my younger brother got married
at 18… Who is in Puerto Rico? …No sorry
my older brother, my younger brother he never migrated with us, my older
brother got married. So, it was like
you're together, but it’s not always fun… Yeah.
Yeah, so… but, but back then… that was not uncommon… for young lady to get
married young, cause have the same type of exposure to a location that you do
now you learn more and women had more rights! Right. (Laughs)… Back then, is like that's like
when a man spoke, the woman jumped. Yeah. But that’s the way it was so…but thank God
you know all three and my two sisters are still with their husbands. That's
nice. I love it, but, but that's the way it was back
then so the exposure of being with the siblings… but you don't know your
siblings because you didn't actually grow up with them every day. That was an
experience. Do you think there's any reason that they married so quickly? I think
it was… I think was for the same reason, you know, that, that… what I think
that they feel like they were strangers in their home maybe they just felt like
they needed more, umm, close environment...
It, it was… I don't know I mean we know
we were close, yeah. That was no part
of… tearing us apart because in, in… Even
with my mother, because she lost five years you know, and she was she was she
wasn't in the picture she had to make do. So, she went from where we live, to the city
when she became babysitter maybe type of thing… So, I think the whole family
unit was not really a family… I think that that had like to do with it…
So,
did any of the rest of your family come to America like extended family or was
it just you guys? I think I my side
was the first… Like they come and visit
here but eventually but there would be relatives that you heard about it…
(laughter) It was like cousins of
cousins, So distant, really distant.
Some that eventually you heard that they
moved, married in, you know, some even came to the area. Oh. But other than that, I
think we were the first ones to come here, to, to, you know as we call it
migrate.
What was your family's impression of
America? Them? I
think it wasn’t probably the same as mine, because I was younger so I could see
that like my… my brother… he felt more they have more freedom… and, and when
they have freedom, they are they get the challenge... So, he thought he was a
man of the house and he… He… I don't know why it's hard to explain but if… I
think about it, it was like it was like they wanted to excel… Like my sister my
older sister you know she look like seventeen days at that she got here. Oh wow.
And she had never met this guy…
How did she find him? Umm… When my mother was here. There used to at
that time there was there was three families… two or three families, Hispanic
families… But there were single guys that had come here to work for the farms
like Bishops or Fonticello’s… So, what happened was, they (local farmers) used
to send them (Hispanics) airfare like early March, and then somewhere in
September, they would send them back, but then you get to the point where these
people did not go back, Yeah. So, they stayed here, and they worked for like
a foundry, so what happened was they become… they started renting apartments and
living together… OK. So,
like… like… umm, so, then now they need somebody to cook the meals and do their
laundry and back then I mean they have to be pressed. Yeah. That was my mother. Yeah.
So, my mother used to be like the homemaker,
and she used to cook in shifts for this people and she used to press their
clothing so she could... she could get paid for it. So, this is how I met… that's how we met, my
first husband and married and I was 16… but… so, this is how my sister…. My older sister her
husband cause I think seventeen days. (Laughs) Wow! And
I think had to do with the environment, you know that my two sisters, I
remember they didn’t get along, so I think that was part of an easy way out, Mhm. but she still with him and is this
been, I… I can’t even tell you how many years… 63. Wow, that a long time. It is a long time! (Laughs) If it works
it works.
Ahh, so is America very different
from what you expected? Well like I said, at ten you can’t tell the
difference. Umm, as you grow it’s different…
because I have had the privilege of going back-and-forth since I was young… I
will visit Puerto Rico and from my perspective… now and then… I think it was
different I think it's… it's like they say, it’s the land of opportunity. Umm, I don't think I would have had the same
opportunities to become who I am now had I not been exposed or brought here
because, because it is what it is you know?
That the level of education, the exposure to the different things that
you don't have there, not that I’m putting my country down, even though we are
a commonwealth country in… we have a little bit, not 100% privileges that
everybody has here, it’s not the same… Yeah…
you know what I'm saying? You have made
me a 60% of it… and if you want to take avenge of it… it good for you, but it
is still here if you have that hundred percent and there's just no excuses not
to excel. Yeah. You know, what to say
it's your choice whether you want to get a head of what you want to sit there
and feel sorry for yourself and I chose not to feel sorry for myself. But I had the opportunity to do it. Had I been in Puerto Rico, I probably
would’ve, me, I probably would've fought
for it, I don't think I would get as far as I have, you know what I mean? Yeah.
It's up to you, people say you can do with what you have, but
sometimes it’s not enough… Yeah. I am, I've done what I had to do to survive,
but it was there for me to choose. But some
people don't have the choices. I had them and I took advantage of them. So yes, it's… it's America is the land
opportunities so you can’t sit back and feel sorry… to say “buts” or “I can't”
you can't, you can’t unless you try. I
try I get an education; I work hard at my job; I always try to move up like… Yeah. I get bored, so I have… I have to succeeded in
my own way. Ehh, you know, people see
things from their different perspective, me, I can say I did what I had to
do. I’m 66 so I can retire. (Laughs) I
ain’t gonna do much more. But yes,
America is the land of opportunities for those that want to take advantage of
it.
So,
where did you and your family go after you first arrived here? So like when you first got off the plane,
where did… where are you where did you go? How long did it take for you to get
to Connecticut, kind of thing? Jeez… I don't even remember we were picked
up I remember that and went straight to Guilford…Like I said, it was nice, and
the lights were so bright, and I was in the back seat, and I remember there
were no seat belts back then. (Laughs) I
remember just sitting there looking up though the back because I was so… I
guess the world would be overwhelmed with all these bright lights… I always
remember getting up the next day and I used to live hear the rail road tracks I
mean the distance between our front door and the rail road tracks… it wasn’t
even… quarter of a mile. Ok. And I had never seen a train in my whole life
(Laughs). and yes, I remember… They’re
loud. Well, yes, I remember waking
up and it was so close that the cabinet doors would rattle, and you could feel them
and, and… I remember first thing in the morning looking at the window cause
back then, they were scary… And I was like, those big box were moving by the
house! (Laughter) But it was so close...
I always remember that was that was at eight
but then it just became… Part of life,
yeah… Yeah, but I don't remember much of in-between… I know we… we were arriving
at Kennedy Oh, that’s very close! Yeah, yeah, yeah… so that I don’t remember who
picked us up or anything…it’s just the lights, the lights… (Laugh)
OK
so what was the process of coming to Connecticut, you said your mother was
already here, so it was probably a little simpler. I don't know exactly; I know them I am by
mother and my step-father and they decided to come here, and then next thing I
knew…. I, we were… being packed up and shipped out… Yeah. I don't know the whole process cause I was too young to
really care or pay attention. So, when I
know it's a whole… whole… idea was to get her kids, to give her purpose. I came here in ‘63… July ‘63 my mother was 65 and she went to the
dentist, they took an x-ray and they said that she had tumors… umm, I remember
that. They said that she should come back, right away, she came back she had
cancer…. she had… uhh… leukemia… She was treated at Yale New Haven, but so my
mother died January ‘67 so I went back… Oh. There's
a little story… I was here I went to Calvin Leete, then to middle school… My
mother gets sick they did surgery but nobody…. nobody spoke…. nobody spoke
Spanish in the professionals, nobody spoke English, like my mother didn’t speak
English. Yeah. So, I used to go to New Haven with my mother,
they pulled me out of school, so I used to go to New Haven… It used to be Grace… It wasn't Yale … you know the name of that… it
was then…. (pause) anyways ,the name of the hospital was called Grace in New
Haven… So, I used to go there with her, for all of her treatments… we used to… the
visiting nurses used to take us to New Haven.
So, I used to do all that, but umm, even to this day I hate going to
hospitals… Anyways, so I traveled to New Haven with my mother for chemo for
many years many, many… many months not years. There used to be two Doctors in the town of
Guilford, used to be Elizabeth Adams and Martin Fink. Elizabeth Adams was my mother’s she was
everybody’s doctor…. (Laughs) her and Dr. Fink.
But she used to come to the house, and ah, she used to come and see her…
One day I went to Dr. Fink with her and I remember cause I was so young, and he
told me, “Your mother is dying, there’s nothing we can do for you”. Oh my God. I was… what was I, I don’t
think I was even twelve? But he couldn’t
tell her, cause she didn't understand! Yeah.
So, I went to… I don't know why I
went to him, with her and he said, “There’s nothing we can do for her.” So, at that point we decided to take her back
to the island and I went with it because everybody else was married. So, we put her in Puerto Rico… It used to be
like a cancer center… Gotcha. But it, it, it…. was like in the city… and I
was in the country do so she we put her there, and she died home, we took her
home… That’s nice… And it was 14, yeah,
she died at 67 so I was thirteen and turned fourteen.
When
did you make it back to the states? I stay with my father for a year after
that, I stayed a little bit with my aunt, I had issues cause I was stubborn and
wouldn’t let people push me around… and as an orphan, that was their motto,
“No.” I was a rebel, I’ve always been a
rebel, if I don’t like it, I’ll tell you. (Laughs) So, they ended up sending me
to…. Ok. I ended up running away, packed up my stuff
and back then you had to take public transportation, so I ended up going to my
Dad…. I went to my Dad and I lived with my Dad for a year… but my father was a
womanizer, and he liked his ladies, and I was in the way! (Laughs) Anyways, I
ended up, he sent me back here when I was fifteen…. No actually it was a sixteen
in April. I came here to live with my
older sister… Came here July of ‘69 and I get married December ’69… I was 16… But… but like I said back then, that’s what you did. Full blown up wedding at umm, sixteen…
The priest said, “We didn’t know that, you were too young!” But that’s the way it was. Yeah.
And I have my two beautiful children, my older kids, so I got
nothing to… it was what it was, and that
was that… So, once again that's it's, it's, it's, you make up your life like
you want, you like to feel sorry for yourself, or you move on. So that was it, I had my two kids and moved
on.
Ok… umm, ok we can skip that one, so
what grade did you start in school here? Hmm… I was ten so third grade, I went to Calvin Leete. Mhm,
my mom went there. Oh yeah? Yeah. (Laughter) Mr. Barnes was a principal, yeah, I went
there, and then I went to Adams. and
then I quit cause I had to go back with my mom, I went to Puerto Rico in…
because of the schools here you were there the way you like almost to two
grades ahead of them at the time. In the
US or in Puerto Rico? Puerto Rico. You’re two grades ahead. If you go from, from here to Puerto Rico, in
knowledge is like two grades ahead like for instance, if your fifth grade over
there, that is seventh grade education here. So, when I went there, they kept, they kept
pushing me, pushing me they could give me the advanced test, so by the time I
came back , when my father sent me back, I had jumped from… When I was there,
they were supposed to out me in fifth grade and they pushed me to seventh grade.
Then in seventh grade, they give me an
aptitude test at school, and I ended up… there were putting me into high school. Then they gave me a scholarship, you know how
they give them here for the technical school?
Yeah. But then I never went and when I had a 4.0
well at that point… But then my father (points her finger behind her, referring
to being sent back to America). When I came here after, I went to Wilbur Cross
so I was the great make me, but he was there, but I told you it's a strange
place to be in here… When you're a child. Like you don’t know, but it made me stronger… definitely.
So,
did you find a difficulty because you're speaking a second language? Yep, when I first came here? Well, yeah, cause there's nobody… (Laughs)
cause there was nobody here to…. Even though like, I didn’t know enough to know…even
if we have enough guts to go to somebody… I didn't know if I could have asked them
enough for them to understand what I was trying to get to so, I would think
between the barrier between knowing and maybe shy… That was then but, I don't
know, you know. As a kid you're adjust
so fast to your environment that I think within the month I felt like one of
them (Laughs). I don't let things into
my way, so I think that as a child and I make, Mhm. You know, I like, I had
good friends that they took pity on me when I was used to talk to them, but I
know I had friends, and I was outside playing so I must've done… If I don't think of the language with them, I just
pointed! (Laughs) Kids have their own… Yeah. Language in the room so I was but with if I
didn't know I put it, so I was fine with it but. Did you feel welcome by classmates? I don't know. I mean because there wasn't that many of Hispanics
in the mix. Ok. I, I don't remember what
the whole… I mean I wasn’t miss-treated; you know? I wasn’t bullied… but I
don't remember exactly how they reacted, but I said, teachers were wonderful. Yeah. You know, so I don't remember being
uncomfortable, and like I said, it all has to do with your personality because you know even though I
kept looking at the clock! (Laugh) Cause, you know, I wanted to go home! It’s, it's hard. Yeah. Because you see pictures and you know what you’re
talking about, but you don't when they start using big words that you don't
understand... Mhm… So, you stay in that club and that
was my friends, but then you know what I
said, like within a month or so. It is
what it is. It was good.
So, what was high
school like? I didn't go to the high school. Ok. Because like I said, between being pulled out of school and then go,
go back to Puerto Rico. I miss time here
and I missed time, but it was like…. it
wasn't normal. Yeah, if you jump from so
many grades… Jumping in, so and then the fact that I got married so young. Yeah. And also, my goal was, I was going to get a
high school diploma one way or another… So, I went to I took the GED test in
Wilbur Cross in New Haven. Ok, and how old were you? Well, let’s
see, my daughter was born, she was born on March 18, so I was nineteen or twenty,
but I was determined, I'm going to do it, and then I went to Middlesex
community college in the late 80s. Then
I had to do what I had to do.
So, was school here
very different from Puerto Rico? From what I can remember it was more strict…
like in Puerto Rico, what I can remember, there’s no school buses. Not in the community that I was in… Umm, there
is more freedom in it, so based on the environment, cause its nice and warm you
can go outside between the teaching… To, to be fair I think they're a little
bit slower… but then again, it's somebody that doesn't know the difference, Yeah? can’t make that judgement call. I could, because I knew at that point of the
difference but… that was it. Yeah. I could tell (Laughs) I could tell
cause what they were teaching versus what I knew was like… I remember that, you
know. But I loved school, so when you like school, things did come easy to me,
the only thing that didn’t come easy was math. Everything else was easy to me, but math, that
I had work at it because everything else came easy to me, I could spend the time on math. So, I remember having this, this, this… heavy
set teacher, and I remember him and I going at it because… he taught math… and
like I said it wasn’t my strong suit.
And I remember him, and I remember thinking like “I learned that in
fifth grade!” and I called him out and
he said, “What do you mean” and I said, “This is, this is seventh grade, you
should be teaching harder… (Laugh)” And
then because I was young, I didn’t know the difference, I couldn’t at that
point, at that time. Yeah. (Whispers something). And I remember like, he would give me the
homework (makes sound imitating her fast math work) and believe that it or not,
he was one of the ones that at the end of the first semester, I would say, that's the one that went to the
principal, and said to the principal, “She needs to move on because of her knowledge.”
So later on, you know, he had, he talked
to all the other teachers to see if my behavior on their class was the same (Laugh).
They said “Now that, she's just way
ahead”… Getting to the subject of the
school, it is… it's more freedom, but the rules of engagement… it is a
different school. Every school,
elementary, middle school, in high school is strictly used strictly in your uniform.
So, like I remember elementary was blue
and white, middle school was brown and white, and in high school, had a choice
of maroon or a gray. When there is a student
out in public, the world stops. Really? Respect, and to this day that’s the way it is.
When those kids get let out of school because there's no buses, so they're
going to mingle, they going to be
everywhere. They go to get from point A
to point B somehow and that's by walking. Yeah.
A student down in Puerto Rico… is
like sacred. You see a student you stop.
Okay. And they stand out, so the respect, the
protection, how they protect him and is different so is the school, different…
So, from that perspective, this is very different and very people look out for
them.
Do
you think that's because they're there learning or do you think that's because
they're young? What do you mean? Do you think there's so much respect for a
student because they’re… in education or do you think it's because they're like
a young person? Because they’re a protector, education obviously has a lot
to do with it, because obviously that's
the purpose of the uniform, so they stand out. Then you know this kid is in school, but also cause they’re protective of their
young, yeah, they protect them. But when
it comes to that, and we had talk to you about uniforms, they stand out they
protect them… and it doesn't matter who it is, it could a younger person to an
older person…and a student is sacred.
And in… (Laughs) if it starts school, and you’re not in school, somebody
is gonna ask you, why are you not at school, why are you here? See what I’m saying? Yeah. So, it goes both ways.
Yeah.
They're going to protected you, but
in the same token, say to you “you need to go to school you don't need to be
hanging around the streets” so that's a good part of the uniform because yeah cause
you cannot get away with just cutting school. Mhm. …and it doesn't, matter in my experience, it
doesn't matter who you are it doesn’t have to be a relative, it just best to be
somebody that cares for you schools open… what do you do? Yeah. I got caught up in…. wait no… I got caught up
and I remember this person… this, this, this elderly lady, I'm thinking like “oh
I don't have an excuse” because I was I was supposed to be school classes well
that was a lesson cause you never know who is going to tell on you, but the
education is… how would I out it, it’s put a higher level but is, once again,
is, is, is, is, what they had versus yeah what kind of, uhh, books… But I guess or you put… But I liked it there
too, cause here in the winter time, I look out and see snow, and I’m like “Ohh,
gonna get my feet cold.” (Laughs) So it’s two lives, there’s the one here, it’s
the one there. Which to me is like, what
an experience, what a ride! (Laughs)
Did
you go to school with many immigrants or no?
Here? Yeah. No, no other than Frank. Frank? Frank, Frank Rivera, he didn’t talk. And when I tell you he didn’t talk, he didn’t
talk. And he was one of the original
families of him in it I think with some seven boys and one girl. Ok. And then there was another family, just two others
of what you call family units in the
town of Guilford, when I came here. So, no there was no… there was no bilingual
teachers there, like you had to do it you had to do… Yeah. Which to me, from my perspective, makes you stronger. I feel that if you come here this country, you
should learn the rules. I have nothing
against people being helped, but I have a problem with people that expect it,
because they’ve been handed it, you know what it saying? So… but people say to me… we come here and no,
there was no such thing back then, there's no… no bilingual teachers. Yeah. There was one lady here in the summer time… to
give her name, Lucy, Mrs. Fairah that
Lady used to live on River Street in the town on Guilford. She was not a teacher I don’t think she was,
he husband was a teacher in the high school… That Lady took to the people, like
us... like my sister and she used to take us places. She had one of those Volkswagen busses and, like,
in the summer, she used to come pick us up and take us out to Sachem's Head (Guilford
Ct.) to some… There was like a… It was almost like a nursery school, but it had
a playground, and that lady spoke Spanish.
Oh. And she did and sometimes… But back then there
was no thing about, you can’t go with strangers because doing it was gonna hurt
you, it was such a kind environment, there wasn’t like, that much… Like fear? Exactly, yeah, you know it
was like, and she is going with us in the summer, and she would take us
swimming… (Laughing) She used to take use to take us to a nursery school up in
Sachem’s Head, and she was everybody's grandmother yeah she used to go up to,
even Spanish masses and she used to go. So,
she was like an icon to the Hispanic because it's… as time went on the single
guys now getting married, they bring their spouses, bring their mothers so then
we became Hispanic populations that are growing in the town of Guilford somewhere
around the early 70s. Other than that,
there's no buddy reaching out and saying…
No, you suck it up then yeah you know there was no excuse. “I can't understand it”, you know, you have
to go home get the dictionary Spanish English dictionary, that's what we did. And my sister… my sister was in high school
too, so she was she was going to the same thing, and there was no so we deal
with he had to do it. And I look at the difference between then, and the
difference between the expectation, is that… some people make me mad I don't
judge them, but I don't know with… Yeah.
You know, don't come here and expect
things to be what you lived before. that's how I feel because I know that we
struggle yeah, we made it, it wasn’t a freebee.
So, when I hear what people look and do, I judge him, maybe? I just
disagree.
So, let's go down to… What was your first
job? My first job…
my first job was when I went to live with my sister, I went to work a place in
Westbrook (name of company) they made belts on the second floor, you know, out
of scratch and then we put on the buckles… I worked in Westbrook right next to where the
Westbrook outlets are... I was… I didn’t have a Social Security because back
then it wasn't required for you to have a Social Security… until I guess my
daughter was born and my sister got it for me.
Umm,
so of all of your jobs, what was most important to you? Well I worked for packaging for UPS… and I
left there well so I went to work, and uhh, I did everything possible… So, I
get bored, if I get bored, I would move up so every time I would put a bid in
(for a new position). So, I ended up a
supervisor, I liked the job because I liked people, I liked helping people, and
my policy was always open door, so you help people that you work with, and you…
you… you see them grow, you know? At
that time I would say 80% of my people were Hispanic because I went to the
agency and they made a point of sending me Hispanics, and I had no problem with
it because, to me, I was helping them in them because they all spoke Spanish
and I don't have a problem with that… Mhm. There were times… I was staying at that
job, to me was, I look at myself as somebody that can help other people... My
relationship with my employees is one of the better, than you if you have
issues… and I can help, I was helping them with like the scheduling… Letting me
know if they come in second because they have… whatever issues again with them
and, so, they knew that that was important to me… Yeah. So, the day that I was
let go was sad, but I had to really let them go ahead to others things, but it
was a big point to me and I'm a sure that when those people… I gave them the
slip… that they will place, a different location… That was my biggest job here
(UPS)…
Have
you ever felt any kind of discrimination?
I never felt any sort of discrimination… because I have a big mouth
and I don't tolerate to much of nonsense. I'll tell you what I think it doesn't mean… I'm
better than you… So only one time… I
remember being discriminated and it went right to my face (motions towards her
face) that I was doing a job… I think I was scheduling on the floor… and there
was a certain person… umm… Yeah? He was Italian and he was in charge the
department, of the finishing department, and there was an opening… a job
opening which is a higher position control… Which is a higher position. Ok. I put in for the job… and so did this other
lady from another country, elderly at the time… So, when I put in the bid… I ask Charlie mind
you I worked there for years. He said to
me “You're Hispanic…” “Yeah?” “…and I don't think that you can understand what
it takes to do the job”… ok… “And why is that?” “Well, because you're Hispanic
and not as educated…” I said, “Ok…” I
said “You realize what you’re saying? First
of all, who are you putting in that position?” “(Last name of another
employee)” and I said, “Well now what’s
her experience?” “She’s a machine operator”
“You’re taking her from machine operator, and you’re putting her in a
scheduling situation, where she has no idea what she’s doing?” I said, “I’ll tell you what, I’m gonna take your ass to the front office,
and you’re going to explain this to the big guy in the corner why you said that
I can’t get this job.” Mhm…
“I said it’s called discrimination.” I said, “But then again, you're not
educated enough to know what that means” (Laugh) Good
for you! And I explain to them… “Being Hispanic, or being…” I think she was
from the Netherlands or something… “Being Hispanic has nothing to do with it…” Yeah.
“It has to do with who is more qualified to do the job.” I said, “You
can't base in advancement and a person based on their ethnic background!” Yeah. I said, “Whether you treat me
like that, are you going to say the same thing to her?” I said “That’s discrimination,
and I’m gonna give punches… Don't give me the job… because I don't want the job
if I have to... to… prove myself in that way.”
And I sided, “I don’t want the job, but this is what I’m gonna do to
you.” I said, “PU her in the job, let
her prove herself, and then we talk.” “Yeah
as of the next time you pull that on me,” I said, “I will take it to the labor
board” I said to him. Oh, my god! I
would be sitting in that office instead of him. (Laughs) That's the only time that I have
gotten to the point where I have to fight… Yeah. Just… just… I don't care, but it's just that
kind of energy that I have experienced. Yeah. It's BS… Yeah. It’s like… it… it's not gonna get me…
getting anything out of it… how I’ve hurt other people… yeah, cause I’ve
stepped in and said that’s not right. And
say, you know that's not right… Yeah…
But me personally, that was the one and only time they hit me… and if he's here
to read, and uhh... and I told him a message and he was nasty… he should treat
the people that work for him with respect.
Just gotta learn to step it up. Yeah. (Shrugs)
Were
almost done. So, do you have a strong
connection to Puerto Rico? How so? In a spiritual way almost? Well yeah,
because I was born there and so it's… it's… it's my country… I believe that it
could be better. The fact that, like I
go visit… that… Yeah. …They sit on
their tush, and they don't make it better… It's like I told you before, don’t
expect people to hand you things, you have to work for them. I find that my country has lost its… its…
values… You know what I'm saying, because by traveling back-and-forth all my
life. Life for instance, Puerto Rico is
an agriculture country… You, you, you have the means to do it, but your too
frickin’ lazy. Cause they rather sit on
their butt, cause they want to go to McDonald's and get a burger and then you
crying that, “Oh my God, I don't have food stamps” all you need to do is go
within, grow some food. Yeah. You know what I'm saying, so I'm proud to be
who I am…. but that said, my country has gone to a place where, your losing your
values, losing who you are, your so into getting things for free. They will you
ask, “Do you want to be a state?” “No.”
Then what the hell do you wanna be?” Yeah. You know… You want the
benefits, but you don't want to… You
know what I mean? I have a brother, and
he grows the vegetables, he grows the fruits, (Dog barking- losing some
recording) Why don’t they grow, they
don’t know (how)… They have lost who they are.
Yeah. Going to Puerto Rico right now… it's like
going America, its McDonald’s, its Walgreen’s, its CVS… Is it they've lost their
identity, exactly? is not the pharmacy in the corner by the mamma and papas
store though the stand in the clinic would do is selling the home-grown vegetable they don't…. That’s what aggravates
me, we lost who we are to become who were not.
That's why I lose my cookies… because he's like uhh “No, don't complain.”
Then don't wait! You have to go to Government to get your food stamps,
so you know what… (sighs) I hate the food I see that goes to waste because
nobody wants to buy it… preferred to,
ahh, go to Walmart and not buy fruit
from Santo Domingo… So, when I go there, because I came from a farmer and as a
kid, I enjoyed that, or going with my family and digging holes and put seeds in
it, but I remember growing food there, but they cry “Poor Me! Poor me!” This is Home. This is my home. That's just the place that I was born.
Uhh, so just last one… With our
current administration in the US, how do you feel they're handing handling immigration? I think once again I see, I see, I
see the people who’ve come here… I think that they get a bad rap… I think that
if you turn the news on and a Spanish name, but you can't judge one by all and all
by one… And I think the separation of families… that's just beyond…. I don't
think that a child should pay for the mistakes of a parent… and no matter what,
no matter what, families have to stay together for the good of a pack. Absolutely. You take a child away from a parent,
you're not punishing the parent… here you actually punishing the child…. and
then not only did you take a child away, you're not providing the child with,
with, with what they need. Are you
treating them as you want them to be? I
see, I see that it would be hard to try to go back… I don't know the situation…
I've heard that the situation is bad. It
is bad… Yeah, you know it's bad… and I, I mean the administration that we
have now… I don't get it… I think that this… this…. this whole administration
has to go in the trash, but umm, I think they will regret this… Families that
will never be back together in come of the cases. So what do I think of it? It sucks, ….can you imagine looking at the
face of a child who is searching for the parent, who's hungry. They said that girls are getting raped…. Yeah, that’s true. This is this is out of control. (Pause) Well, thank you. You’re welcome. I am ending our recording now.
Gaby Veguilla
OK now I'm recording. The
purpose of this research is to collect oral histories from members of New
Haven's Caribbean born community these interviews will be digitally collected
for use by researchers at the New Haven ethnic heritage center as well as on
the digital New Haven website. If you choose to participate in this project you
will be asked to engage an oral history interview with a student in the course
history for at oral history these interviews will be approximately 90 minutes
long and may require a follow up meeting to clarify portions of the
interview. The study poses minimal risk
to you as a participant because the project will ask you to remember stories of
your life. There is a possibility you may recall unpleasant or upsetting
memories. If this should happen you may request a break or to stop the
interview. Your participation in this project will help to ensure that the
history of new Haven's Caribbean immigrant community is remembered and made
available to future generations of scholars in community members. Your participation in this study is
completely voluntary you may will draw anytime your interview will be
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will be destroyed The digital transcription will be preserved at the New Haven
ethnic heritage center and or the digital New Haven website. Your age gender
year of immigration and country of origin will be made available to researchers
you may choose whether or not you wish to be identified by name. The research
project has been explained to me I have read and understood the above comments
I am aware that my participation is voluntary and then I may stop the interview
or and my participation that anytime. I am aware that my decision to
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heritage center or digital humanities understand that a digital transcript of
my interview will be made available to students and other researchers based
upon the following conditions. Place an X right there right there and sign right there at the bottom.
Thank you. Okay first question.. When and where were you born ?
Juan Veguilla
Okay I was born in Caguas,
Puerto Rico on August 8, 1969
Gaby
Why, if you know, did your parents choose that name
one for you?
Juan
I don't know why they chose the
name Juan but my middle name is after my father Carlos So my name is Juan
Carlos Veguilla
Gaby
Tell me about your parents..
Juan
Okay so ... I really didn't
know my dad too much. Well I don't know
him at all to tell you the truth. My mother had me when she was young, I
believe she was like 15 years old and I come from a family where my grandmother
had 22 kids 11 boys and girls. My mother was the youngest of all the siblings
and she always lived with my aunt which was uh Connie Torres. And she basically
finished raising my mother and I, uh you know when when she was young.
Gaby
Did your mom do anything for a
living when you were growing up?
Juan
Unfortunately my mom was not
educated. She when we moved from Puerto Rico they moved to Connecticut and we
lived in New Britain for as far as I can remember. My mom had little odds and ends jobs you know
in different factories but for the most part she wasn't working, a lot.
Gaby
Do you remember when you guys
came to Connecticut?
Juan
No I was a baby I was a baby. I
know they moved down here I must have been about two years old, when I was a
baby from what I gather.
Gaby
What was your religious
background if you guys to celebrate religion?
Juan
Um, most of my family's
Catholic so that's what I think That's
what I followed
Gaby
Do you remember anything about
your grandparents
Juan
No I remember I don't remember
a lot but I remember a little bit .. My grandmother, she lived to be 100 years
old. She was born in 19 1880 and she died in 1980 and as I was a kid I remember
her still being around but not my grandfather and all the sisters used to take
turns on taking care of her at the house. I remember her for you know a little
bit.
Gaby
So Your mom had you when she
was young. Did she have any other kids?
Juan
Yes, she had another son. Not
with the same father. His name of a Jesus Correa. That's my brother, my half
brother. I don't call him a half brother. You know my brothers my brother
that's it. And and he still lives in New Britain. And then I found .. Well my
other brother. Well my other brother found me when I was turning 40. When
Facebook was out somebody text me and he says “oh I think I'm your brother”.
And it turns out that my biological father had a son, his name's Tony
Veguilla And he's still living in
Chicago but he lived in Puerto Rico for many years
Gaby
So did you ever come to meet
your dad?
Juan
I did I took a trip to Puerto
Rico about six years ago. And I went to
go see him. So I stayed at his (Tony’s)
grandmother's house which is my grandmother's house by part of my biological
father. And we've been in communications ever since.
Gaby
How was it like to meet him?
Juan
It was good because he always
felt that he was alone. And you know it was it was good seeing him because you
know now we're like best friends you know we talked about everything. You know
we have a love for each other that it wasn't from when we were young but we
kind of made it seem like it was like we're always been there for each other.
Gaby
How was it meeting your dad?
Juan
Well, meating my dad was kind
of weird because he's an alcoholic, he really didn't know who was who you know,
he's at an older age and life and he was you know.. I only met him for a few minutes because he
was in such a disarray that you know it really didn't matter if I was there or
not. But I have two step dads that
helped raise me since I was a kid that I still called Dad. And one of them was
the one that was married to Connie Torres, his name is Luis Torres and he
basically took over as my dad, you know, providing for me. One of the things
that went on when I was a kid was that since my mother was young my aunt took
over, you know, in taking care of me And
my mother was in such poverty that I stayed at my aunt's house most of the
time, most of my life I stayed there and they were like my parents, you know, I
call her mom and dad and they're like my parents and at the same time I would
still have a relationship with my mother my biological mother which my aunt was
always taking care of and helping out that you know she got married with
somebody else and I called him Dad too
So it's like I have two step dads but I was okay with that
Gaby
So, what kind of activities
that you do as a child growing up?
Juan
Well as a child you know there
were no cell phones. There's only street phones, you know, I played with kids
outside we played football, baseball and I was in every sport that you can
think of in school. You know, baseball
is my favorite I played a lot of baseball.
You know, I hung out with the kids there was you know you went outside.
There was no oh here's $1 so you could buy something if you get hungry or
something. No it was you went outside and you played for the whole day and got
home before it was dark. So we did a lot
of activities, you know, there was never no vacations to go to Florida, none of
that you know, you basically spent your your summers in front of the fire
hydrant You know, again were walking
around the block where you live you know people were always outside on their
porches everybody knew everybody and it was a nice time in life
Gaby
What is your earliest memory?
If you can think of one,
Juan
Hm [pause] basically my one of
my earliest memories that I could think of is just being with all my cousins in a room. Because when there
was like a social event or a holiday they had so much family that there was nobody
from the outside at our parties it was all the little cousins, you know, the
the adults are playing bingo or something and we would all be in the room you
know horsing around wrestling, you know, there was no video games, there was no
TVs like that, you know, so we would all be in there playing games Hide and
Seek, Knock Knock Zoom Zoom,you know all kinds of things.
Gaby
Um Why do you think your family
came to Connecticut from Puerto Rico?
Juan
Well I think that um my the one
that I call my my stepdad which was my uncle really, he was in the military, he
was in the Air Force. And this is where the jobs were at the time in the 70s.
They still lived in the projects and were trying to buy a house and he moved
here from from being in the military moved to Connecticut and he got a job at
Pratt and Whitney which was one of the, you know, a good job to have after the
military He was an engineer and he
worked at Pratt Whitney for like 40 years just retired recently like two years
ago
Gaby
What was the neighborhood like
when you were growing up?
Juan
Alright, so, that's kind of hard question because I lived
in two neighborhoods because after my uncle got established and bought a house
they lived on the other side of town.
And I would spend maybe out of the week, I would spend four days over
there and three days at my mom's house and I had a little brother which kind of
entertain me at the time. And they lived in the projects in Pinnacle Heights in
New Britain and my aunt lived in a house on the east side of New Britain. And you know, nice house, you know, they
worked hard they would never home because they're always working but then when
I went to my biological mother's house you know they lived in the projects so
there was a lot of people around you know it was fun times. You know a lot of
people that we could relate to
Gaby
what was school like for you as
a kid?
Juan
Well school for me as a kid was
hard especially because my parents had no no rules I feel it's raining you
don't want to go to school you didn't have to go to school my parents really
didn't put school on me. Um. Especially
when I say at my biological mom’s, school was whatever I mean of it and you
know I could have got a better education but I didn't because I was so used to
hanging out with all all the people from around that I didn't go to school
much. There was a lot of times where
school was just like ... I was bored, you know, they didn't have pills to
concentrate they didn't have none of that If you went to school when you were
bad you know they call your parents your parents would come and whoop your
butt. That was how it was, it wasn't like now where you have all these rules
and everything. So school wasn't a big thing for me I used to love not going to
school. But I loved being around everybody so there was times that I did go.
Gaby
So what did you do instead of
going to school?
Juan
Just hang out like go with my
friends, you know, I wasn't the only one that was, uh, I don't want to say peer
pressure but everybody was like "oh you're going to school?" we'd be
walking to school be like "oh let's go to Louis's house" or
something And we skip school and go
there to my friend Louis Santiago's house
Gaby
Did you ever get bullied or
teased growing up?
Juan
I think everybody goes through
that until you find the crowd that you're in with, people that are like you.
You know I think everybody goes through that because everybody could feel
uncomfortable when somebody’s speaking a different language, when somebody has different clothes, you
know, my parents weren’t too rich, I used to get hand me downs and sometimes
you know you knew that you had something on, so you would avoid situations like
that I think sometimes that's why I didn't go to school sometimes you know
holes in my jeans or my sneakers worn out, you know just a social persona of ..
wow look at you you're kind of dusty ... looking you know and that's how how
kinda life went for a little while until you start realizing that hey listen
you need school if you don't have school you're going to end up working at
McDonald's or Burger King which are.. uh it's a job listen you living the
American dream if you have a job. But you get into other things when you can't
provide for yourself. You kind of fall into the same pattern that your parents
fell under you know they didn’t know much English and they suffered a lot you
know but you can never miss what you never had.
When I used to go to my biological mothers’ house sometimes you would
open the refrigerator and there was a big square of cheese, some powdered milk
or some beer in the refrigerator. I mean
that's how it was you know and we lived we you could never know what you didn't
have. So we didn't miss having some
chocolate milk in there or you know they used to be like sometimes you would
find like those big giant cans of Chef Boyardee that's been open for like a
week or two where the top is real crusty you know you take out that one at the
bottom you know it was like that It wasn’t like it is now where we have six
boxes of cereal in the cabinet we got milk, “Oh you don't have no juice” and we
go buy juice for the kids, soda and all kinds of stuff that luxury wasn't
there.
Gaby
Um how do you think your
relationship to where with your both your mom's?
Juan
I had a good relationship I
mean you know back in the days when I was growing up you mess up it’s not like
now you're not gonna go stand in the corner or you know you're on punishment,
you're not gonna we're going to take something away from you. You can't take
nothing away from me because I ain’t have nothing. You know and and basically
it was like you did what your parents did said or else you get the pa-pow, you
know they put the belt over the door and you're like oh man you know when your
father be working like my uncle's working and mom will say oh wait until your
dad comes home. I'm not gonna do nothing just wait until he comes home and you
be you know you're scared. You know crap your pants that oh no dad's coming
home pretty soon. Hope that she doesn't tell which 90% of the time she
wouldn't, but that's how moms are you know. They threaten you until they get
what they want. Back in the days for me
at least.
Gaby
What was the highest grade you
went in school
Juan
The highest grade I went to.. I
went to high school for three years but I think I only finished the 10th grade.
Gaby
And then did you go back
eventually?
Juan
Well I met a certain lady in my
life. And you know she was about me and I was about her and I had to change the
way things were because I saw her dedication and how she was and she was really
nice really nice girl and you know I was, she got pregnant and I had something
to come up and I was thinking to myself even though I had like my biological
mother and my aunt and uncle that were like my parents, you know I still
thought of wow my dad was never in my life or nothing like that. So you know when she told me she was pregnant
I said you know I gotta do better for my kids I want them to understand that
they will never go through what I went through. Because sometimes it's hard you
know I used to do a lot of sports when I was a kid but I walked to the sports
myself I used to get on the team but my parents never went to one sports game.
They never supported me in any way like that even with school or anything like
that they never did. And I played football, wrestling those were the times I
went to school when there was an activity for sports and I wanted to play the
sport. So I did that.. Even little
league baseball. I had trophies for baseball for pitching, for catching, a lot
of things but I wanted to do better for my kids you know. I was like I'm gonna
be there for my kids and it kind of changed my life around cuz then after I got
with her you know I couldn't get a job anywhere. You got no high school
education. So I was getting these jobs working in factories at 4 or 5 dollars
an hour. The first job I had after that was at Thompson Candy for I think it
was $3.15 an hour. And that was in 1990,
$3.25 an hour $87 home a week. Could you imagine that. That's Poor.
Gaby
When you were little what did
you want to be when you grew up?
Juan
Um if I think about it now
clearly I really didn't want to I didn't have any goals. I was just living life
by saying I'm living, I'm glad. I lost a
lot of friends due to violence. You know being shot or things to that nature
and I really didn't think about being a fireman a police officer none of that
stuff I never thought about it. Even as an adult I had plans to be an officer
and do different things but I never did it and never never followed through
with it and I didn't want to. I was
lazy. And I didn't have the
encouragement to do it so I never never wanted to be anything really. I was just living life, happy that I was
living. You know it wasn't brought to me when I was a kid. It wasn't all like
oh, you want to be fireman, you want to be an astronaut, you want to be a
teacher, you want to be one of those things, no life was you’re living day by
day and kinda the parents are so involved in work that they forget there's a
little mind growing a little sponge. And you kind of grow in you develop by the
people that you hang around with you know and I didn't hang around with good
people. Now all of the.. there’s good people I mean you know they're your
friends but they didn't have any goals and some of them were drug dealers and
some of them were drug addicts. And my goal was to go party. That was it.
Gaby
What made what do you think
made you not you know become a drug dealer get into trouble like that?
Juan
Well I remember one day I was in the projects and
I got jumped by a whole different project you know there was fights between
projects. And one day I was walking home like three in the morning I was cut, I
was bleeding I cleaned myself up and I was walking home and um a kid that lived
in the the east side which his parents were from the projects but moved to the
east side too, became one of my best friends in life George Lopez. And the next
day I was walking to school and he picked me up. He was like “Oh you live
around here I was like yeah I live in my aunt's house, that's when I started
staying at my aunt's house more often than my mother's, you know when the
trouble came. He was like “Oh what you doing tonight? We're going to go
clubbing” and I was like I ain’t got no money and ain’t got nothing. You know
he was like I got you I’ll treat you and we went out clubbing. He treated me it
was a good time. So here comes the next weekend. He was like yo are you doing we going
clubbing and I was like again with the same sob story and ain’t got no money I
ain’t got nothing. I don’t even got
clothes to go out. He was like alright
man I'll check you out later. That night
I just hung out on the block. The next day George comes to me he goes yo you're
not selling you're not doing this you're not doing that how you getting money?
I was like I'm not if my mom gives me $20 or something... He goes man you can’t
live off your mom's. So that was a little lesson that I learned there, which he
learned from his parents. You don't work you don't get nothing. So then he got
me a job at Ponderosa. And we were we were working enough to have a little
money for the end of the week to go out and that's kind of how the you know how
I started working and doing stuff. But my mom used to go out there for
everybody was selling drugs and she used to say if Carlos gets arrested I'm
calling the cops on everybody here. And my mom wasnt scare of nobody. She would
go out there where there's Jamaicans, Blacks, Puerto Ricans, Chinese it
don’t matter what you were if she's out
there and I was out there, she's getting your face and yelling. And the kids would be like Yo Juan your mom
is crazy man. And you know I was kind of
excluded from a lot of stuff because of it like yo we're going to go do this, I
used to be like I’m down let's go and they’re like nah man you can’t come with
me your mom's is crazy. You know so that kind of helped a little bit because I
found other things to do you know. And I
remember I remember when people used to be getting high you know everybody
smoked weed everybody smoked a little weed in their time or whatever. But where
I lived people are getting into worse then I started hitting it um Mount
Pleasant. People are doing heroin, dope and stuff like that. And at that time
um we were all you know a little group of us were like yo what are these people
doing what are these people doing you know and um we're like yo man we're not
going to do that so we made a little pact
We made a little promise to each other that we wasn't going to do it you
know some of us were like na we're not gotta get high so people are high on
heroin dope and all kinds of stuff But
we didn't We're more into drawing and
graffiti and stuff like that you know
We were the younger kids compared to people that I knew that were there
so we were like a little generation of younger kids that was growing up with the
older kids that were there were doing the stuff you know.
Gaby
How did you come to meet your
wife?
Juan
My wife. Yeah. So we go to we were always going out.
So we're going to the club at a time was Rumors in Bristol. And we go, we're
going to the club and all the time you know there's a group of girls and a
group guys and we always you know the guys always talk about whatever. And my Boy George and I would go out all the
time. As I said with prior comments with him me and we're buddies me, him, Louis,
Hector a whole bunch of us. Were going
out. So I saw this girl and I try to talk to her and she didn't want to talk to
me at all for nothing. She don't want to
give my number nothing nothing nothing.
She didn't like the way my hair was combed or something I don't know.
(We both giggle) But my friend George says Hey listen I think I know that girl.
So yeah well where do you know her from? I think she works with me at Aetna, he
was working at Aetna. So he said that he
was going to he said that he was going to talk to her for me and get her numbers
and stuff. And then to make a long story
short I seen her after at the club and I was talking to her and little by
little you know we started talking and hanging out and talking more and she had
just graduated. And I was hanging out and the rest is history.
Gaby
How do you describe her?
Juan
Yes I described who the person
she is from inside. Outside, she's beautiful. But this was a time when my
parents didn't want me to um to be at the house my aunt and uncle. My aunt and
uncle had gotten a divorce. And she was working at night and she would not like
groceries on a regular or nothing like that. So I met Nancy and we were hanging
out and she will come over sometimes. And we will talk on a regular phone in
the house we would call each other and be on the phone for a while. And one day
um I um she called me one day we were talking and she was like oh what you're
doing? And I was like Oh well nothing you know chilling and it was like around
10 o'clock at night and she was like Oh yeah so you're not doing tonight and I
was like na I’m just gonna stay home. I told her I was hungry, I said oh yeah
man I'm hungry cuz my mom didn't cook today or whatever. So I'm just gonna chill at home. So then
about half an hour later I hear a knock on the door. It was her. She had snuck out of her house
and she brought me a subway grinder.
Which I thought this was somebody doing something nice for me. You know
and that's how the relationship kind of went because she was so nice you know
she was a nice person thoughtful caring you know and there wasn't a lot of that
in my life like people saw different picture than what I felt. You know people we see, oh you got a better
life than me because you got this you got or but it's never the true
story. You know people don’t know the
real story of the things that you go through you know you just start thinking
in your head about situations and you think of what could be. You know this is
the girl that if you open a door for her she would open the lock on the other
side for you. That's that girl. You know
that's what means he is where if I needed help She was there I didn't have to
ask. She was already there when guarding my back.
Gaby
What do you believe is the key
to a successful marriage?
Juan
Hmm. I don't know I don't know I don't I don't
really know what is perceived as successful? I mean we've been together for 26
years. And I think that we become each
other. You know she becomes like me and I become like her, basically is what
you're willing to put up with. That's what a marriage is. Are you willing to
put up with the pain in the butt of the things that she does is she willing to
put up with the pain in the butt that I do you know. And you know having our
kids is another commitment having kids and really loving them and really doing
for them. When you guys were small she didn't want to go on vacation because
she didn't want to leave you guys with nobody, that's the mother that she is
you know and we sacrifice a lot. I
worked third shift for six years to take care of you guys. You know because we
didn't have the money for daycare. And we didn't have the money for things a
lot of times you know the sacrifices we did we did it for you guys but because
we were together it didn't matter.
Gaby
Um so how would you describe
your children
Juan
Each one of my children are so
different. They are also different I mean my first one is Gaby Gabyeguilla, for
now and I think she's just like me little bit not a lot because she her
personality is great you know she's outgoing she's friendly. Just like me you
know she could be tougher if she wants to you know just like me. And she's all
around great. And then then we have
Jesse which is more I think he got more genes of her family and her parents you
know he reminds me of her father where he's more stubborn. He's loving but he
doesn't show it all the time. You know he's caring, he doesn't show it all the
time, you know he acts like no you don't care but he cares. You know deep down
he cares I know that I see that you know he does have a guilty conscience if he
does something you know. He's a good kid. He tries hard and then we have Julian
which is you know he's a loner. He's
fine walking to school, he's fine taking the bus, and he's fine just having his
own time. But that's his personality. You know all I gotta say about my kids
that I'm proud of them. They've always they always try to do what's right. From
my eyes maybe not all the time but from what I see sometimes I say that they're
trying to do the right thing. And they're all different. And I love them all
the same. You know it wouldn't be perfect if it was perfect you know what I
mean. And it's a work in progress. You never finish raising your kids even when
they're grown, going to have a baby, or get married, you're never done helping
them until you can't do that no more.
Gaby
Um what is your favorite memory
of your children?
Juan
Oh my god. The road trips when
we were going to Florida, where we would put the music and everybody be singing
and different things like that. I had one memory that I remember that was the
funniest that I almost peed my pants - was we were coming from seeing one of my
friends in the hospital. From New Haven I got all three kids in the backseat of
my car and my friend at the time was a police officer and he was going to pull
us over, Andy Sanchez was his name and he's going to pull us over he put the
lights on behind us. We're coming from New Haven to Meriden. And I was in the
fast lane and he was behind me and Nancy says he's gonna pull you over. And I
was like nah so I let go of the gas I got in the middle lane, which I wasn't
going fast anyways. He gets in the middle lane with me. She goes you see I told
you and I was like no. So I get into the slow lane and go slow and the kids are
looking out the window and they're laughing they're like you're going to get a
ticket dad. I’m like na, the guy turns on the lights and sirens (Making siren
sound effects) I was like aw shit everybody got to seat belts on? Yeah cuz I
checked everybody had to seat belts on after the lights of the cops go on you
guys always had your seat belts on but
me and Nancy you know. So when I'm pulling over, the cop kind of goes right by
me and I see a middle finger in the window.
And all I hear is the kids heyyyy that’s Tio Andy! And we were laughing. You know I thought it
was hysterical. We had a good time. But there was a lot of times that I
remember what the kids the times in the pool. You know just going to your
concerts, to see Gaby do her dancing recitals which she doesn’t dance now but
we spent most of her childhood going to ballet, to gymnastics, to dance and the
kids you know playing peewee baseball.
You know like Julian was one of the best times because he I would take
them to go play baseball and he'd be in the outfield cutting the grass laying
down with Alex cutting the grass I used to be like get up, get up! But it was
all fun I miss it so much. I hated the times taking everybody to school. I used
to fight about it I gotta take go to three schools elementary middle school
high school and I work third shift. And I was like oh I hate this I can't wait
til it is done and it is done. It flew by and I miss it so much.
Gaby
Um .. what do you think, Who do
you think was had the most positive influence in your whole life?
-PAUSE-
Gaby V
What, or who
do you think has been the most positive influence in your whole life?
Juan
Well, like I
said, before, I really my friends really didn't push me for anything. And um, I
think that I kind of when I became a young adult, I started hanging around with
a group of guys over here. And we're all basically like the same, we had so
much in common. You know, we all have kids around the same time, and we had a
group. And, for me, the biggest influence in my life was the group that I was
hanging with, because, you know, we always used to say, hang around nine,
broke, people, you're bound to be the 10th one. And we all kind of lived off of
that. And we all work hard at getting our education back and getting a good
job, the reason our family going on vacation together. And I think that was one
of the most influential years of my life was when I was like, 20 till now,
where my friends, the people that I call family now, were the biggest influence
on me Why? Because we didn't let each other down. We always had something
positive to say. And we hung around with each other all the time. And we you
know, as the Agnes and Edgar, there's Jerry and Evelyn, there was, um, who else
there was, you know, a lot of people and the, you know, Gerry, Mari, there's a lot of
people, I mean, I can't think of everybody's name right now. But there was so
many of us that we, we kind of looked out for each other, you know, and when
somebody was in trouble, hey, listen, what can I help you with? Let me help you
find a job. Let me help you do this. And that's basically how it was. I mean,
one of the most influential people, for me also wa Nancy Veguilla, o the person
that was always dedicated to work and the children, you know, I couldn't let
her down. You know, I couldn't let her down even though my sckness with s
diabetes or whatever, I always had to push forward for her and my kids, you
know, but she was one of the most influential people for me.
Gaby V
So how was
it finding out the you had diabetes?
Juan
Whoa, I must
have always had juvenile diabetes, because I was always skinny, always thirsty,
always sick like that. I live with it for a lot of years without even knowing.
And when I first started um going on with Nancy, I was always skinny, skinny,
skinny, skinny. And then I started to get stick towards like our our in our
relationship had started. And I was always sick to my stomach, urinated a lot.
And then I got real sick one day, I just moved out of my my aunt's house. And
we were staying with Jeanette and Tito, which is Nancy’s sister and brother in
law. And I had to go to hospital I couldn't take anymore. And I went to New
Britain General. And they said I had a stomach virus. And then like a week
later, I was at Midstate and I was sick, sick, sick. When I went over there,
you know, after doing all the testing everything, they told me I had diabetes
type one. And my pancreas doesn't work. I had to take insulin. And you know, at
the time, I'll tell you the truth. You know, you don't know even know what
diabetes was, you know, we were never taught about diabetes, of anything like
that. And you don't know what you could have, because you've been out on this
world for such a long time that, you know, diabetes is like, Oh, I mean, what
is that, like a cold? No but it has taken over my life. And, you know, it was
it wasn't a shock. That was like, okay, you know, kind of deal with it as it
came along.
Gaby V
Where was
your first job?
Juan
My first
job? Let me see. I'm trying to think back. Well, I didn't newspapers for a
little while, when I was a kid. So that was kind of like my first job
delivering newspaper. So last, last, it lasted maybe a week of getting up early
in the morning. One day the papers gave and all right. Just like school, I
ain't going. And that was it. On one of the other first jobs I had was at a
fried chicken place on Willow Street in New Britain. Yep, I worked there for
about three months. And then I worked at Ponderosa with my friend like I told
you.
Gaby V
So how did
you get to do you do now?
Juan
Alright, so
I was in between jobs not doing anything. You know, and my family's really big.
I have a lot of girls cousins and guy cousins, but they work in the medical
field. And when one day we were had gone over my cousin Marisol is house. And
she was like, Carlos, why don’t you become a CNA, and I was like, What the hell
is that? You know, because I didn't know what it was. She was like, yo, you
help the viejitos (old people in Spanish), and you hope you know, you bet you
could help lift them, and do stuff like that. And I was like, let me think
about it, right. There wasn't a lot of guys in the field when I started. And
then, so I was looking around, I couldn't find where to do it. And then here in
Meriden, they have this place called Casa Boricua, where they help people that
are Spanish, and they help them find jobs, get an education and things like
that. So I went there and ask them, I had to fill out an application. And at
the time, I was walking working at Walborro for like $5 an hour. And they
didn't accept me, they said, I was making too much money. I was making less
than welfare money, you know. So I, I kept calling the lady, every day, I would
call her like Hello, hello, hello. And then on one day, when I picked up the
phone, and I called her that they say we had three people quit, you want to
still take the class because we need to get people in there? And I say yes. And
I took the class for the CNA. And that's why I got it and then where we did our
teaching, you know, where you go do your clinical is the place that I still
work at now. The place was run down, they had a lot of things that were going wrong
with it, and they didn't have any staffing. So from taking the clinical there,
a whole bunch of us that that still work there, took the clinical there. And,
you know, we started working as CNAs.
Gaby V
What, how do
you think the world has changed from before when you were growing up to now?
Juan
Well, the
world has changed because neighbors used to really look out for neighbors. In
my own opinion, this is you know, kids used to go outside, we used to get all
play the dirt, play football, play all kinds of stuff. There may be places
where that still exist. But for me, the technology has changed the world for
the worse. Because, you know, we go out to dinner, hang out with somebody,
everybody's on their phone, looking at this social media has, you know, the
government put social media out, because guess what, that's big brother. A
little example, I'll tell you, I was talking to my wife the other day, and I
told her, Hey, let's go to my friend Louis house. Right? We're going to get in
the car. And my phone tells me 30 minutes to Louis's house. Now who told my
phone to look that up, I mean, we're being really monitored without knowing our
lives, our lives are here, cops are looking at all these videos for the kids
that do bad things. Cops are monitoring everything. I mean, if somebody is
lost, I don't know how they don’t find them if they have a phone, you know, but
technology has changed the world where it may be for the best if people can't
go out. But if you could get out, go outside, go outside and take a big deep
breath of fresh air, walk. You know, I work in a nursing home what death is
where people are sick, they can’t walk, they can’t walk in a room anymore, they
can't go out to the store, you can’t do that. Right now us as still young
people, young adults, even middle aged adults, get out, go do something with
yourself. You know, the world has changed in that way not to mention
terrorists, and all that other stuff. You know what we were scared when we were
young, to go down the block and see somebody from another block that wanted to
fight us. We were never scared of somebody from another country, or somewhere
else wanting to kill or harm us, you know, the fear of my kids going to school,
and something happening to them or going to a club. And something happened to
them. You know, like Israel, those places things that we only saw the news.
It's a reality here. Now, you just don't know. So that's how the world has
changed. Because, you know, it must have been a safer time, because we didn't
see that it was safer because you didn't have that fear. But now the fear is
real. And now it's here. And that's, you know, even though people still go do
their things, I don't think a lot of people realize the severity of the
situation that we're in, because we still go out to the bars, we still go hang
out. But there's still people out there that have um that bad intentions on
their mind. You know, and that's where the world has changed. Because I think
it's always happened like that. There's just less occurrences of it.
Gaby V
So what do
you think the biggest problems Puerto Ricans have faced in your lifetime?
Juan
In my
lifetime, I really wasn't aware of it until recently, my adulthood life,
because I really didn't, you know, I was born over there, and have gone over
there to visit and came back here. But because of my circle of friends, you
know, we never realized that Puerto Ricans are at the bottom of the totem pole
when it comes to ethnicities in, in in the way people are. I mean, my kids may
not realize this. But and this is only my own personal opinion. I don't, you
know, I just say this, Puerto Rican people are proud people, because of the
injustice is that the United States have done to them, you know, learn your
history, people, there's a lot of things in history that, you know, when you
hear it, you kind of outraged by it. Pharmaceutical companies of Puerto Rico,
use the test, birth control, and young girls and Puerto Rico, not to mention
Vieques with with the bombings, which is an island, small island of Puerto
Rico, not to mention that here in the United States, if you were ever to show a
Puerto Rican flag to put you in jail for five years, I mean, the history of the
neglect of the poverty that United States has helped Puerto Rico and you know,
us as people were proud of that now. You know, we're proud people. Now, you
know, I always say this about Puerto Ricans, if you fall, Puerto Rico pick you
up, help you up, but don't ever try to cut in front of them. And that is a true
statement. For the most part. You know, I love my people. I love Puerto Rico,
everything. But there's a lot of injustices that happened with us. You know,
the I was at work one day, and I work with Filipinos, you know, all kinds of
people work with me. And the Filipino people that came, could they get
sponsored to come here and work. So one day
we were working, and we're talking, and one of those comments that was said was
that Puerto Rican people like to have babies so they could go on welfare. Which
is word very offensive to me. Because the only Puerto Rican people that I know
and I hang out with now have college education. They are raise their families.
You know, I don't see that part, which I'm sure there is. But there is that
with every group, every nationality there is. But the people that I know, are
law abiding citizens that work hard to raise their family and to have a
successful life. To live the American dream house picket fence, you know, you
guys don't know what roaches are, you know, things like that. So that I find
that offensive. And I think that the stereotypes of the world they hold Puerto
Rican people, the stereotype they hold, they will Puerto Ricans are that we’re
low class, that we are people that, you know, we're dummies, we don't want to
get an education. You know, we forget that we are a colonized society from
United States. Puerto Rico is in shambles that it is in because of rich
America. You know, maybe before there was a reason why they did it because of
the war or something like that. But times have changed. You know, Puerto Rico
is crumbling, because of United States. I mean, if we're part of the United
States, then why are we treat it like every other state? How can we can't have
a president? How can you know, we don't really have anybody in Congress or anything.
We have fought in every war. I'm just learning about the history now. I mean,
there's a ton of people that can tell you a lot more about Puerto Rican
history, but that's just what I see from my eyes. You know, a lot of my friends
been to Iraqi Freedom, you know, to all kinds of wars, modern wars. And they're
Puerto Rican, and they give their life for this country. So why ain’t they
treated the same way. I mean, you know, it’s sad the stereotype Puerto Rico's
as the low class, low class, Hispanics, you know, a lot of people I didn't know
this, a lot of people don’t know what a Puerto Rican is. Yes, we had a traveling
nurse come up from the west coast. She's like, Oh, you guys Mexican, or
Ecuadorians? Like, what? Puerto Rican? Puerto Rican? Where's that from? Puerto
Rico? Hello. But that's another thing. You know, Caucasians are think of all of
us like Mexicans. I mean, right here, Connecticut's a big Puerto Rican
population. So everybody knows. But when you go somewhere else, they say, you
know, are you Mexican? Which is the majority of the people migrating from down
south, up here.
Gaby V
Do you think
that you faced any discrimination? Because you and your parents spoke Spanish?
Juan
Absolutely.
Absolutely. There's, it doesn't matter even to this day, even to this day, I
work in a nursing home with elderly people, even to this day. They talk that if
you talk Spanish in front of them, even though Spanish is like a universal
language, which a lot of languages could tell some of the words that you say,
you know, they they look at you bad, they, you know, they degrade you. There's
a lot of situations like that I've even have come across with that, where
people are like, Oh, why are you talking Spanish go back to your country. This
is my country. You know, you don't understand, especially for young people,
they will understand that. I mean, you understand why there’s violence in this
world is because people are not willing to accept who you are, where you come
from. That's a lot of things happen like that, because people are biased. You
know? Yes, there's times that you should refrain from talking your native
language. You know, when you're in a business setup, or something like that.
You've never want people to think that you're talking about, you know, the
business aspect of it. But if the person you're with doesn't understand
anything, but the language, then you have to talk it, like in a restaurant, you
know, we went to a restaurant, where we were all talking in Spanish, there's
about eight of us. And the guy was saying, people are getting up and leaving.
That's how racist this place was. And it was a bar, had Black bartenders,
Spanish cook, you know what I mean? And those white people in there, and I'm
not saying where people are the only ones? I'm just explaining who was there,
you know? And the guy kept saying, good, good one. Good one, people are leaving
using good one. So we know we just kept, yo, listen, you could feel that
tension when somebody is going against you. Even if it's from afar, you could
feel the tension because it's just in the year. And the guy was saying good
one. Good one. And then when went outside to get some air and we come back and
the guy was leaving me gives everybody the finger up you Mexicans. And we're
like, What? You know, me being who I am. I'm like, listen, don't worry about
it. His night got ruined. Ours doesn't have to be. Some of the guys want to
kick their butt. You know what I mean? The guys know what they're like, oh,
let's go beat this ass. I'm like, No, we gotta chill.
Gaby V
Um, we are
coming close to the time, do you want to say, add anything else?
Juan
No, I don't
want to add anything. I mean, it's good that you know, you get to hear people's
stories. There’s a million stories out there. This is just my story. It may not
be complete because I'm, you know, we're talking about it now. And some of the
things may draw a blank, but when you leave, I'll think of 100 different things
that we could have talked about that were better. But all in all it is it's a
it's a short story of who I am. It may not be as accurate as I remember. I know
all timers or something, you know, you just don't know. But everything is you
know, for the most part, how I remember.
Gaby V
Okay, Thank
you again and I'm gonna stop recording know.
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